The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Twelfth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Geneva, Switzerland, from 17 to 21 December 2017. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> VAGNER DINIZ: Can you hear me? OK. Good afternoon. Or good evening. Good afternoon everyone. Thanks for joining us. This workshop aims to identify the opportunities and challenges of virtual reality for the connected society. Since interview changed the way we publish and consume data, socialize and learn and (?) in the business.
We explain more detail in the schedule. If you go there, you can see more detail about this workshop and our aims. The fact is virtual reality is not a buzz word. It's been around since the '60s, but today, we have a better technologies, faster processors, chips, bandwidth and enriched web. Technical communities want to leverage virtual reality a step forward and make it the next computing platform.
It's been essentially the same since its invention. But now virtual reality has potential to eliminating the constraints we always have when using a flat screen like this notebook or web browser.
That is what this workshop is about. Virtual reality in the web.
Well, before introducing the speakers, I want to express my gratitude to all the team that make all their best to make this workshop happen. First of all, Mr. Diogo Cortiz who was the coordinator of this workshop. And the co-coordinator Mrs. Caroline Burle. And also my organization, Ceweb.br. Thank you to Mr. Hartmut Glaser and also Mr. Gatti who helped make it available. I want to give thanks to Mr. (?), very Greek his name or (?), whatever.
The -- our, Nathalia -- OK. She's here. Thank you very much.
And also our host. Thank you very much.
Introducing the speakers.
Diogo Cortiz, he's researcher at Technology Study Center. He is at NIC.br. You have the floor, please.
>> DIOGO CORTIZ: Hello. Thank you and glad to be here. I want to start my talk saying that VR is not a buzz word. Actually, in fact it's a research area that has been around since the '60s. One of the first VR projects was the Sensorama, if you see the timeline here. Approach design to display 3D images in a wide angle view providing body tilting. Sounds. Aroma, during the fume. So it was like the first machine to create an immersive media. So it was in ‘60.
And then in '65, Ivan Sutherland, he's known as the father of computer graphics. Create the display. A prototype of glass that projected displays object to the user eyes. It was the first head mounted display we have seen now in a commercial version.
Since then virtual reality has become the subject of research not only in computer science and engineering, but also in communication, and (?). An example of this movement that I bring here is like the book Hamlet on the whole deck. Published in '97. A researcher at the time at Harvard. Greater movement of studies how story telling would be in an immersive media.
And the technology have gone through development process and improvements that have brought us to the current level where we are able to view effective applications of virtual reality. Nowadays we have the required technology and graphic processing chips. So thank you to the GP Us, the graphic process units that pushing forward not just the VR, but also the artificial intelligence.
If seeing like a great moving AI, it's because GPUs also. And of course in the VR.
So now we have like our computer graphic processing that has the power to provide us the technology that we need to build great virtual reality projects. A milestone in the contemporary period story of virtual reality was the launch of the last one in the timeline.
The project that kickstarted, we show it to the large industry, that at that time, there was already the technology needed to create effective virtual reality projects.
So now it's possible to identify a major movement of technical community to leverage virtual reality forward. And make it the next computing platform.
Web has been essentially the same, as Vagner mentioned. So it would be like one of the environment that you impact in the next years. We'll have speaker Dominique that will explain a little bit about it.
And now we are seeing like leading technology companies identify this trend, and they are focused on developing their product and service in these areas.
Just imagine this, Facebook has bought Oculus. Google has the project Cardboard and also Tango, the project for augmented reality. And Microsoft has the HoloLens and also HC, together create the five.
And all the universities and tech communities are stressing works and research in this area.
Scientists, engineers, designers and programmers are being located in the large number to work specifically in this area. The generation of knowledge and the process of innovation on the subject is only growing.
This movement drives even more the development of virtual reality. To get a sense of the market, this report from Goldman Sachs that point out that virtual reality investment, the investment in virtual reality have already reached $3.5 billion last year.
And they project that by 2025 the market will be $80 billion. It's the same size of the desktop PC markets today.
So it's there. What they are projecting.
So virtual reality's becoming strategic for many technology companies. The possibilities of interaction that these technologies bring us are so promising that experts already call it the next computing platform. The most well-known use of virtual reality is of course, games and entertainment.
But now we are seeing a lot of projects in many areas. Especially in education, research, et cetera.
Just to show some projects in different areas, this is a project from (?) research UK. The institute that is investing 20 million pounds just to virtual reality research in tumors. It will be had first time technology has been used to virtually view and study real-life tumors. Why? Because if you give us a new approach to study and deal with the data.
So it's very different like if you have a table, we see the data in a way.
But if you have a graph, you see in another way. And with 3D, using 3D technologies, it has improvement in our perception and how we deal with data.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: Your time is almost every.
>> DIOGO CORTIZ: OK. We also have this project like for education, that's an app from Google called Expeditions that give immersive virtual journeys for kids around the world. Performative project for education that we use to build like teachers and students all around the world in the same place, even if they are geographically separated. They can come together in a virtual space and they can play with the data. They can share knowledge in a new manner.
Of course we have like Moodle, we have like Blackboard, that are like tools for online research. But during our research, we found that students using this platform, they feel they do not want to participate because they feel like lack of community. Because they are not together. They are only typing in forums. They only changing information in chats. So we move forward and we create experiment to use this. And it brought a new way to interact in a virtual world. And it's very, very important for classroom, educational approach that has been taken in many countries around the world.
We have a paper published in IAAA human systems interaction earlier this year that shows this results. So if you are interested in this place, you can move around.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: One minute.
>> DIOGO CORTIZ: So now we are seeing that the markets' leading us to these movements. Since we move from computers to smartphones, then the next big platform for us will be the head mounted display in virtual reality.
But we can move on. And but it bring us some kinds of new ways to do socially, interaction, also.
And bring us new challenges. I think that in Egypt we talk a lot about data privacy. But now using virtual reality, we need to tell about privacy in our human senses. Because the user by immersed in an environment that was developed by a third party. That you could be a big industry, could be a small industry.
But it has a lot of implications in how we perceive the world and our perception. I would like to share a lot of studies, but we don't have time, so we can move forward, because the other speakers will tell more about the impact and challenges of virtual reality. Thank you.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: Thank you very much Mr. Cortiz for your introduction. Now we move to Dominique Hazaël-Massieux. He's our remotely invited speaker. He is developer relationships lead and he's part of the project management team. Strategy specialist on virtual and augmented reality.
>> DOMINIQUE HAZAËL-MASSIEUX: Can you hear me OK?
>> Yes. OK, Dominique, go ahead.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: Hello, Dominique. Can you hear us?
>> DOMINIQUE HAZAËL-MASSIEUX: Hello? Can you hear me?
>> Yes.
>> DOMINIQUE HAZAËL-MASSIEUX: OK. Sorry. So I'm happy to be with you today. I'm back at home. I work for the ICC, the worldwide web consortium. Organization for the web. We are the organization, technology that makes web browser work (?).
More sensible for (?) virtual reality. The reason I'm here today is to explain why I think the web has a critical role to play on virtual reality. To address some of the challenges that virtual reality has today and to create opportunities that maybe hard to reach otherwise.
We heard from the previous speakers, virtual reality is a paradigm shift.
(No audible dialogue).
To be open to (?)
The third thing is that proprietary platform, also fragmented. You have to redevelop projects (?) values. Virtual reality platform that it is today.
And in general, virtual reality experiences tend to be all or nothing.
Try to find in some cases -- if you want to integrate virtual reality into existing work flows, activities, then you need (?) part to start and (?) virtual reality experience.
And today, building virtual reality experiences requires a lot of very specific, specialized knowledge.
If we do think that virtual reality is whenever computing is heading t needs to become more accessible to a broader set of creators and developers.
That's why I think the web has a critical role to play. And by that I mean, if we can enable virtual reality in web browsers, if we can make web browsers a channel of the virtual reality experience. We address many of these challenges.
First, the web is almost by definition a platform that we have all the platforms, and we can run a web browser on your desktop, on laptop, mobile phones and tablets and even in some cars. In some -- pretty much all the connected devices you can think of.
So it creates this unity of platform
(No audio).
It's a great place to start a virtual reality experience. And most importantly, the web is an Internet platform. There is nobody controlling the web. It's a platform that is built collectively by (?)
Anyone can build for the web and one can use experiences, build on the web. So it's a very (?) promise for virtual reality experiences.
So that's -- assuming we are in agreement that we see a great platform for what is needed to make it happen. While it happens, the web has most of the required technology. You can build (?) to the web. You can build (?) on the web. Game packs and controllers from a web browser.
One of the recent breaks was the ability to detect and connect to external head-mounted displays. And we have ongoing work that actually addresses this.
And technology and it's called web VR, or web virtual reality.
Web XR. Less augmented reality. And technology that project come from a web browser into a headset. Which means that you can -- for example, you can start watching training video on regular computer. And then when you need to get into more detail, you can switch to the other mode, put your headset on and continue the approach to the alternative solution.
So in addition to all the advantages that I mentioned as to the web, a great platform for virtual reality, I think it is a great enabler for creativity, virtual reality. One thing that most people would agree on, that the web has broadest community of developers. If your platform has (?) as the web. Which means that there will be lot of people with permission to try and deploy experiences. And create the possibility for neutrality.
I conclude my transition by saying that the FCC is trying to host a company (?) web as a platform (?)
Organize a couple workshops on the topic. Going to start some organization for web XR. Because next year, I'm also looking at organizing any workshop on augmented virtual reality. I would be very interested in getting input from people that would be interested to contribute to that work. Thanks.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: OK. Thank you, Dominique for your presentation. Thank you for telling us about the web as platform to unify all platforms. And also thank you for telling us about web VR and web XR technologies.
And please stay with us for Q&A at the end of the presentations.
Now I would like to move on and please I want to present Charith Fernando. He is co-founder and CTO at Telexistence and Company and senior assistant professor at Keio University in Japan. He's a researcher in virtual reality and telexistence. You have the floor.
>> CHARITH FERNANDO: Hi, can you hear me?
>> VAGNER DINIZ: We can hear clearly.
>> CHARITH FERNANDO: OK.
(?)
>> VAGNER DINIZ: Everything is fine. We can see your presentation.
>> CHARITH FERNANDO: Great. So I'm Charith. I work for telexistence Japan and (?).
And what I'm going to explain about today is related to something called the next level of telexistence.
Let me explain a bit of what we're doing now. You might be seeing this,, the person on the left side is not only just controlling, like he's actually inside -- can feel like he's inside, so he can (?) stuff and also he can see, hear, and also he can feel what he's (?) in the remote environment as well.
In this image that you can see. He's seeing himself using a mirror.
So a lot of people like explaining before it's getting really popular, these things. And virtual reality market is something like this. And what we are targeting is something for robots.
Most of the robots are used for industrial projects right now. For example, this that you see, the last industry robot used for the car manufacturing. And also for painting stuff.
But what we want to do actually in Telexistence is connect to a different robot in a different location and to help working in the remote environment as if they were in the same environment.
This concept of Telexistence was founded by someone at the University of Tokyo.
You might be able to find it more on the web. But what it does is basically, like there's is this user on the left side and robot on the right side.
Once you are connected through the Internet, you can see the 3D visuals from the two cameras on the robot. But today it shouldn't be. And also the audio. And the motion is sent back to the robot so that it's synchronized.
And when he moves his head, the robot's head moves accordingly.
And also like when he touches on the remote environment, he gets the feedback back to his hand.
So you can see that like the extension is like different location, but you can feel like you're inside the robot. Which is sort of like extension of bodies.
So this exactly what happens when you, like, for example train for using a racket or using a hammer so that you can --
It's the same thing, but it's far away. Like you are extending your body to a robot. And the good part is this has been actually done using through the Internet.
So let me show you this video so you can understand it much more clearly.
This is what he sees. And when it is touched or can feel temperature, detect sensation and temperatures.
You can see find motion and small items as well as like day to day objects.
So there are a few applications I would like to show. How much time do I have left?
>> VAGNER DINIZ: What about five minutes. Is that OK?
>> CHARITH FERNANDO: Sure. Yes. So this is the project that we did together with the construction company in Japan. So instead of using this this backhoe operated by humans, this backhoe you see in this video, there's a small robot. And connected through the Internet to this robot inside the backhoe. And you can see and manipulate the backhoe as you are inside the backhoe.
And also like we did some 360 views. Mapped to the head. You can have sort of like synchronous running.
And during the Tokyo marathon last year, very useful.
You can see even this person is not in the same environment. He or she can run -- and basically the video feed was actually coming realtime from a person who is running the marathon at the same time.
So we have sort of like things that we were exploring. Like what kind of next generation virtual reality applications that we can do.
Let me get into the -- we started this company, and we are focusing on the (?) telework, telexperience.
But I would like to explain a little bit more about the infrastructure of the web. Because I think that's useful for the audience right now.
We are using sort of like a -- similar to robot.
The robot and user connects through streams and data delivered both ways from the robot to the user and the user to the robot.
I would like to discuss a little bit of issues that we are facing and probably like it would be a good topic that we could regard in the next several (?)
For example when you want to have realtime communication or realtime control with a robot, the prioritization is very much important. For example, for audio communication or video communication, you might think that the resolution is important, but when you want to control a robot. For example, like the latency and the frames per second is more important in order to keep -- the user, get too much busy.
So right now we are facing several issues. We might not be able to lock down this kind of prioritization based on the current approaches of servers. We're having some solutions at the same time as well.
Then another thing is probably might be knowing that when you send the data from one end to another end with the two peers, the control is taken care by the system itself. Sometimes we might need to override the rate control system so that we can send the best rate data and so on.
And one other thing. Maybe once the two peers has been locked down, the routing is not always the same.
Because it takes the shortest part between the two peer to peer locations. But this slide, be good for all you and we do communication. But just imagine that when you are like controlling the robot and if this kind of change happens dynamically, the performance might be really drastically reduced.
So it may not be able to adapt by that time for the user.
As I was explaining the previous thing, there's the data channel and the media channel that we're using for the controls, the robots' joint angles and stuff. And this has to be synchronized.
Actually he's controlling from his current motion and so on.
Probably that's about it. Yeah.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: OK. Thank you Charith for your presentation. Thank you for explaining us what is Telexistence and about some current issues on these fields.
I know you must be very, very sleepy now because you are in the middle of your sleeping time.
(Laughter)
But if you may stay a little bit more with us, please. Stay with us for question and answers session in a few minutes. Thank you very much for the moment. Thank you.
So the next speaker is Lorrayne Porciuncula. She is an economist and policy analyst on communications infrastructure and services at the Digital Economy and Policy Division in the OECG.
>> LORRAYNE PORCIUNCULA: Thank you very much. While the presentations were very fascinating, very inspiring, they showed us several applications.
And I'll try to make my intervention short. And I have five main points. Today I'll focus on infrastructure and infrastructure issues.
So while VR is growing in rapid rate in terms of hardware and software, and investment, the world is still struggling to catch up in terms of infrastructure.
First I want to make the point about streaming. Streaming is the mandate for content alignment. Today every day consumers count with streaming music, movies, games, sporting events or events like this one today at IGF. With VR it will be no different.
Streaming is the new normal, and that's why it matters for Internet governance issues. The expectation that content will be streamed has important implications for the network.
This is my second point. Bandwidth. For VR work, each VR stream needs to be duplicated. One for each time. So dual streams require a lot of bandwidth. Estimates from VR providers show that 720 VR video stream now takes at least 50 megabits for second connection.
So just to give you an idea, the majority of (?) countries are below this. Only Korea, Sweden and Japan have average broadband speed.
In the U.S., the average speed for users is around 14 megabits for second. For gamers those are higher because they care a lot about their bandwidth. The average speeds are 34 megabits per second. So not reaching 50 megabits at all. In Brazil, because our host is Brazilian. Gamers have an average of 9 megabits a second. How will we enable VR streaming with these current speeds?
You would think that countries are developing all sorts of ambitious connectivity targets, but the reality is they are very much behind for the future. Even if we continue to improve techniques to compress video such as performance spatial redundancy, intelligence splicing and encoding techniques such as pyramid geometry, something Facebook is working on.
The content will be even higher. For video streaming, it's expected we'll need 500 megabits of connection. Other estimates that foresee VR as -- replicate every small vibration that our ears would hear, and eventually other details that we could touch.
Smell and temperature, and really calculating all that kind of human perceptions, we would need to be able to process 5.2 gigabits per seconds for sound and light. That is called the tactile Internet or as the other speaker said, telexistence.
The most ambitious connectivity targets among countries is of 1 gigabit per second. Sweden aims to have 98% of households and businesses connected with 1 gigabit per second by 2025.
Others at 30, some at 50 per second and others at 100. The FCC in the U.S. predicted that 25 megabits per second would be the future requirements for broadband networks. When we compare the prediction of the 5.2 gigabits per second with those predictions and targets, we see we're a long way behind. And this is countries looking at the long term.
But this long term is not nearly enough for real advanced VR applications. And my third point is on latency. Latency refers to the time delay. Normally measured in milliseconds between initial input and output.
So minimizing latency is of interest for capital markets, for example. Because in areas such as aggregates and trading, and online gaming and others.
VR requires also ultralow latency. The latency simulators need to be equal or smaller than the latency between our eyesight and other sensors in our brain. Otherwise it causes motion sickness.
So for VR in augmented reality applications, the delay between action to reaction is the threshold of 15 milliseconds to 7 milliseconds.
That is very low latency. 5g is promising to bring latency down to 10 milliseconds. However we need to have fiber in order to do that. And we're certainly not there yet.
Let alone Developing Countries.
My fourth and final point, coverage. We're still very much behind in terms of high speed Internet coverage, and in the panel just before this one, we're tackling the issue of rural broadband.
Don't have high speed Internet in rural areas. The divide exists between rural and rich and poor. It's a bottleneck for VR development and one that cannot be overlooked. I just want to make this point of infrastructure. Streaming, bandwidth requirement, latency and coverage.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: Thank you very much for being so objective and for your concerns. Streaming, bandwidth, latency and coverage. And especially latency that cause me alder some sickness.
Let's move for next and the last speaker. Ana Cristina Azevedo. She's a professor at McKinsey University in Sao Paulo. She's a researcher in digital law, in digital rights. You have the floor, please.
>> ANA CRISTINA AZEVEDO: First I would like to thank you very much for the invitation. I'm very happy to contribute to this session. And I know I don't have much time, so I will also be very objective.
And actually, I will start illustrating what is my privacy concern? I have this presentation, and in the middle of this presentation, I got a pop-up of the manufacturer of my notebook asking me to select an option, send the data to HP to check my warranty status. Oh, and because I'm in a rush, of course I will just click OK. And my data is already shared.
This is not the case, but what virtual reality changed if we compare with other privacy concerns in smartphones, for instance? Well, I would say that most of us maybe that are here attending the IGF have already made a checkup, a privacy checkup, a Google or Facebook. And maybe opted out of many, many sharing clauses. Unfortunately, most people don't do that. They don't have this patience. They don't have time to read everything and they just click OK, OK, next. And that's it.
Virtual reality. These new applications, they innovate because besides storing so much data about -- just information that we give them -- virtual reality applications, they also store data about our movements and also about voice.
I don't know how many people here had the chance to try (?) if you have an Xbox at home with this connect device, it's basically recording everything that you say. Microsoft says they don't record, they are just -- they pay attention until the time you say turn on. But if you not saying turn on, they are not taking care of what you are doing.
Also they say, the user always has the right to check or uncheck what kind of information he or she wants to share.
So this would already be a great risk for us, because well, you never know the future.
Maybe your main privacy concern today regards your parents if you are a child or a teenager. Or if you are married and you are cheating on someone, your main privacy concern will be regarding your wife or husband.
Or if you are just a citizen, yes, you might be concerned about the information these companies have about you. Or if you are a criminal, what about the government? What if connect has collected information, what happens there?
And maybe this information will be used against you in criminal suit. So the concerns, they are different. They regard different people, different actors.
And it's not all about privacy. We should also concern about security because we see today many data breaches. They happen all the time.
I do have a Yahoo account and I remember they sent me an e-mail. Sorry, we got unfortunately, a data breach happened and we are kindly requesting our users to change the password. OK.
But the password -- oh, I have basically three or five passwords I use for everything. And now I should not only change this password at my Yahoo account, but also everywhere I also use this password.
In the end, I didn't do anything, and some months later, oh, I didn't change the password and I didn't even remember which password was object of this data breach.
What could we do? We as users, we cannot do much regarding security. I would say we can basically share, not much -- we should not share much. But Brazilians love Facebook, and I see there are different profiles. There are many people that basically share every day what they eat, where they go. They share everything on Facebook.
Others don't. Others will share more professional information. Others will share moments of happiness. And let's not share too much.
But what Internet governance could do? Well, the Brazilian (?) view has a rule to amplify rules that they could help. According to our law, application providers, all these websites and devices that can interact, use the Internet platform, they can only keep records from other applications up on the consent of the data owner.
Why other applications? Because once you have the VR headsets, OK, you might have completely agreed with all the terms of use of this VR headsets, but you also need to agree with terms of use of other applications where you use your headsets.
And that's why this rule is important. But it's not only the rule. I would say that we need to be patient. Users, they need to be patient.
They need to be educated to realize how risky it is when you share information.
It might be great sometimes, but it also involves risks and users must be aware of this. Thank you very much.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: OK. Thank you, Ana Cristina Azevedo, for your contribution and to make some comments about the great risk about new type of data is collected. And maybe shared. Like voice movement, sentiment reactions.
Now it's time to open the floor for the audience here. So if you have any questions, please use the microphone. Raise your hand and use the microphone, please.
First you and then here. OK. Please don't forget to identify yourself.
>> Hello I'm Gabriel from Brazil also. On a perspective of the companies that produces and commercialize VRs, how they can maintain the use of the VR. Like for the apps, using reference and other voice and speaking the data. And guarantee the privacy of the users. I mean it's a tough feeling, but I think we also have to propose some solutions.
One I can propose is terms of service. But we all know that is a contract that you don't really check and read.
So do you have some proposal for that? Or solution? Thank you.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: Just a second, Ana Cristina. If you're one of the remote speakers, if you want to reply, please feel free. First Ana Cristina.
>> ANA CRISTINA AZEVEDO: I guess in our audience, we don't have only lawyers. So it's important to mention that sometimes a contract might have an illegal clause. And if this happens, a judge will sentence that this clause is illegal and it has no value at all.
Another interesting rule from the Brazilian view is that application providers, they -- it's forbidden for them to keep personal data that is excessive in relation for the purpose which content was given by its data owner.
This doesn't solve all our problems. Because servers will have this information. Unless the user sues the company, nothing will happen. So still, we will always need that the user is educated for these kind of new devices, technologies and virtual reality, it's just getting more serious with this thing of recording motion. Yeah.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: One of the remote speakers started saying something, right? Nope? Sorry.
>> I'm.
>> DIOGO CORTIZ: I'm not a lawyer but do a lot of research regarding collective science and so on. And we are seeing a lot of movement regarding privacy and what, for example the suppliers collect the data from, et cetera.
But now we are starting to see a new movement regarding privacy of my things as I said before. Because for me it's very, very dangerous. Like providers, experienced developers, they can influence you.
So we have seen before many social medias doing psychology parents, get this group of people and just show happy things, and get this group of people and just show bad things and see how they would behave. We had this before. Now in a virtual reality, we're not just using a screen. You're not just typing your phone. No, you are immersively in a digital world. I don't know if you have a try, but it's incredible, amazing, and there are a lot of psychology impact on this.
But for example, just to show, there is a research that was performed that can show the paper after. It's not my research, but they got a group of people. Two groups of people. And they, in a virtual reality, they build an island. And the audience, when they put the headset, they needed to perform some tasks in this island. But the case here is that the descent on that island, that digital island, for one group was synchronized with (?), the time to move (?)
And for other group, they move like three times faster. And after they experience it, they ask the people, oh, how long have you been there? And you say, one hour. And so the other people that the faster move, the sun move faster, it was like, oh, I spend there like two hours, three hours. So it's change our perception.
And you been immersed in an environment that you been controlled by big companies. As Facebook has already launched the Facebook Space. That's the Facebook is actually used, but with virtual reality.
So we need to move a step forward, because of course we need to say about data collection. But also about how they can interfere in our experience as humans.
>> VAGNER DINIZ: We have to finish because the transcription has already finished before we finish the session.
(Laughter)
So we have to finish the session. So I want to thank everyone who participate, who attend this meeting. Especially I want to thank to the speakers and also I want to thank the remote speakers. Thank you very much for joining us. I hope to see you again very soon. Thank you very much.
(Applause)
(Session concluded at 6:27 p.m.)