The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Eleventh Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Jalisco, Mexico, from 5 to 9 December 2016. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> OLGA CAVALLI: Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much for being with us this morning. I know it's Friday. I know we are all tired, but somehow full of new knowledge ‑‑ yes. Oh, I'm just talking to people.
(Laughter).
Thank you, Glen. I'm posing for the picture. Okay. Thank you very much. (Speaking Spanish).
Thank you very much for being with us this morning. After a very interesting four days of activities you are full of new knowledge. You are full of new questions, and we want to discuss with you something that many of us in the panel and I'm sure that many of you care about, which is ‑‑ where do you go to find relevant information about Internet Governance content? Which websites you consult? Which books you care? You find it relevant? You don't find it relevant? How relevant is those of us who participate in this space, and having this content and how easy is it to create it and how do we get input into this different spaces about content? How difficult it is if it's another language, which are the barriers, who may be capturing those paces?
So for trying to create a dialogue about these issues we have a group ‑‑ first of all, they are all good friends of us and professionals that are related somehow with this issue and with the Internet Governance environment. So I will let them briefly introduce themselves from ‑‑ starting from Claudio on my left, and then ending Renata and then I will give the floor to my friend Dustin who is coordinating this ‑‑ this workshop with me. This workshop is organized by ICANNWiki, the organization which is now called ‑‑ help me. Association Internet Americas. Thank you for being with us this morning so early.
Claudio?
>> CLAUDIO LUCENA: Thank you very much, Olga. Good morning, everyone. I'm Claudio Lucena. I'm a president from the law faculty. I come from computer science and law backgrounds. Currently I'm a research for the foundation of science. And I'm with the research center for the future of law, currently researching the governance of algorithms.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you.
>> CYNTHIA SOLIS: So my name is Cynthia Solis. I am lawyer. I'm sorry. And now today, I'm representing the national polytechnic institute and I am professional on cybersecurity but also I am teacher of the server security topic in the master of engineering in security.
>> I'm currently working as a cybersecurity policy consultant in the cybersecurity at the Organization of American States.
>> CATERINE GARCIA P. VAN HOOGSTRATEN: Good morning, Caterine Garcia van Hoogstraten, I have come with the Dutch, working for Hague University of Applied Science, the Center for Expertise, Webster University and women in cybersecurity as well.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you.
>> EDMOND CHUNG: Edmond Chung here, we are a top level domain registry but we are operated as a nonprofit organization. So we end up creating a number of different communities for Internet Governance related, including from promoting new details and acceptance of those top level domains to youth engagement to, in fact, helping tigers and promoting the SDGs.
>> Good morning. I am a researcher from Brazil and also participant here in IGF of the MAG for civil society and the Best Practice Forum for cochairing gender elect in access.
Also apologize for being a bit late. We have the main session on BPS today, but ‑‑ but we work in researching Internet Governance in Brazil, me and my colleagues and building materials being content related to Internet conference government building and social media, and other platforms.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Also on my side, I have Dustin Phillips. He is from ICANNWiki, and the workshop is organized with help from the Internet Society Argentina chapter and we have a promote participant, that's Nadira Alaraj. I'm told that the video is good and the audio of the remote participation is good. So we hope that you can join us remotely in a moment.
So I will give the floor to my colleague Dustin ‑‑ oh, by the way, my name is Olga Cavalli. I don't know if I said that. I will give the floor to my colleague Dustin. He will give a general introduction of what we intend to talk in this hour and a half that we have this morning and then I will go to our speakers referring to some questions that we have thought and then maybe we can start a dialogue with you.
>> DUSIN PHILLIPS: Thank you, Olga, and thank you, everyone, for being here.
The topic of this workshop is creating Internet Governance content that is relevant for people across the world, and we talk a lot about making the multi‑stakeholder model and Internet Governance inclusive, but can it truly be inclusive if we are excluding anyone who doesn't speak English?
There's a lot of great content out there in English, but there are certain barriers to translating that content, making it available, and making it relevant.
I'm sorry for doing this so early in the morning, but I want to have a little bit of audience interaction here. Can I just get a raise of hands for everyone who speaks a language other than English as their native language?
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Wow!
>> DUSIN PHILLIPS: Yes. See? This proves my point because right now we are in this workshop, where there is no translation, and that's a problem! Because the perspectives that we need in order to find out how to provide relevant content to people they are not able to take part in this discussion because we don't have the translation available.
So we need to do a better job as a community of being more inclusive of different cultures and languages. So in this workshop, we just want to exchange ideas about these challenges that we're facing and how we can make Internet Governance content multi‑stakeholder, diverse, multilingual and inclusive for the sustainable growth that has taken such a prominent role in this IGF.
So with that, I'm going to turn it back over to Olga and let her take it from there.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Okay. Thank you, Dustin.
And as you can see, many of us are Spanish speaking persons because we are from the region, and we organize a very interesting open forum the other day with the Internet association of the Americas and Infotech and we decided to make it in Spanish because all the speakers spoke Spanish, but we have no transcript. One plus and one less. But we have the video and the video is very good. So that's a source of information.
So I prepared some questions for our speakers and given the fact that Renata has to maybe leave us early, I would maybe, if you allow me change a little bit the order and I will allow ‑‑ ask a question to Claudio. Portuguese Spanish content, Portuguese is very ‑‑ it's spoken by many people, millions of people, but I think that a challenge for Portuguese speaking content or producing content is that countries that speak Portuguese are spread all over the world, which is somehow different from Spanish, that it's more or less concentrated in the Americas and in Spain. Of course, Latinos are all over the world.
How difficult it is to create Portuguese. What I have noticed also is whenever ‑‑ every time I go to Brazil, all of my Brazilian colleagues do speak Spanish but Argentineans don't. We speak an invention from Argentina and I have learned Portuguese. It's a language that I love, but I think Brazilians do care about the language that are surrounding their country and I'm not sure if others do care about the importance of Portuguese in the creation of content and the interaction in between especially colleagues in Latin America and other regions where people do speak Portuguese. So I will let Renata start with some comments about this.
>> RENATA AQUINO RIBEIRO: Thank you very much. Indeed, it's interesting how we think about many dimensions of Internet Governance.
For example, bringing youth and we don't think about the youth not being fluent English speaker yet. So we have here a huge group from Brazil of young, smart, independent and very, very resourceful Internet Governance attendees in IGF who do not have any content. All the time we are attending sessions, we are discussing with you. Even our tweets, we go out in broken English tweets.
So it's indeed very important to think about this, and not only from the ‑‑ I think from really the access to information aspect, but from the multicultural aspect. Latin America is diverse. So we are a very diverse continent. We also even have Dutch and French and most of the people don't know this. So we are sort of blocked into a cultural content which does not identify us. And when you talk about Brazil, you also have the different dimensions of Brazil. You have the Amazonian Brazil, and we have the other regions. When you come to the Amazon region, there are four of us here. Our language and our culture is very important. Our Portuguese colonization is a part of us.
So indeed, we do relate to content that does portray us and we try ‑‑ we also do try the best we can just like the invention of Portono to cross over. We do also try to make ourselves understood. So we need your help. We need all of you on ‑‑ here on the session now, on the virtual room to talk to us. Talk in your language and we will respond back.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you, Renata. Claudio. Sorry to put you on the spot. I know you are Brazilian.
>> CLAUDIO LUCENA: You just have to pay a price for being a Brazilian.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Of course. Of course.
>> CLAUDIO LUCENA: There's something you mentioned in the beginning. The impressions that Brazilians care a lot for another language. I think there's a new generation of Brazilians that do care but it's not yet a general sense, not at all.
I interact frequently with Russian friends from the higher school of economics. We had one fellow from the higher school of economics here, and I have the same impression that in Russia everyone speaks English, because my environment, when I arrived there, is an environment of English speaking people. So I have this impression. And they do say the same thing.
There say a new generation of Russian professionals who are trying to speak another language. But it's not a general thing. I don't think we have this sense.
There's interesting and sad data in the beginning of science without borders, we used two or three because the students didn't have the ability in another language. So ‑‑ and then we started to diminish the criterion and the students go and don't make the post of the problem.
So it's still an issue in Brazil.
I would like to like a spark here in the beginning from what Dustin said also. I have played with language ‑‑ automation of language process back in the '90s, the last century, by the when, when I was a computer science student. Now I'm a language and tools mechanisms. From what I have seen and then from the trends and for what is on the go, I have the impression that multilingualism as such tends to be in the near future less of a deal.
I know it's kind of a controversial argument maybe because of that I should make it but also I recognize from start that number one, it's not going to solve the problems we have today. Number two, there is multiculturalism embedded in multilingualism, and number three, the tools that are here and on the go are not going to be readily accessible or available to everyone. So that's why our dialogue still remains very important here. We are looking for solutions for today. We are looking for solution that meets multicultural needs and we are also looking for solutions that are widely available to everyone. That's why the challenges remain.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you.
>> So I will speak as a Brazilian and international employee. First as a Brazilian. Thank you, Olga for complimenting our Spanish. We try hard. We thank you for that. You have been kind. Actually, well, I was kind of lucky because my mom is an English teacher. So I had a chance of learning from a very young age. And in the case of Spanish, I was passionate about literature.
It's true as the other panelists have mentioned in the region, English in our country, in our Brazil, English teaching and Spanish teaching and other languages are still challenged. Public schools and even in private schools, it's still hard. We still have to improve our methodology. Brazil, we are 200 million people and we do have a lot of resources. We produce material for us, and ‑‑ but there are times, of sometimes exporting this if you can only write in Portuguese and also writing from outside. Although we produce a lot of good things and we produce a lot of good research and material, sometimes it may be challenged if we have the English barrier.
Well, Portuguese is an official language and unfortunately in the cybersecurity program, you see or notice that most of our reports is all published in English and Spanish. We don't see our reports published in Portuguese or in French. And the answer for this question, is lack of resources. It's very difficult to translate it, not only OES, but I think entire international organizations are facing financial challenge and that's unfortunate, because we cannot produce documents. I would love to translate our reports but I'm just one person. I cannot do this by myself.
And we are actually open volunteers who are to go translate these documents to other languages, especially French and Portuguese.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you very much. And then I will come back to the Portuguese issue, after we have some other comments from colleagues.
I will change again a little bit the order, now that we are talking about other languages. I will ‑‑ I would like to comment from Edmond, from Asia region, and maybe after Edmond, if we can have Nadira on remote. She speaks Arabic and English.
So it's not only other language. It's other script. And other totally different culture. How do you find this content in other scripts and other languages? Is there a demand for this Internet Governance content in your region, in your languages? How easy it is to handle other scripts? I know there are efforts made by ICANN and by other organizations in including IDNs, but is it challenging? How ‑‑ I know that you are doing a lot of work with.Asia and I have to recognize that Edmond has been one of the first in this environment bringing young people to this meeting.
I remember several IGFs ago that you brought the first group of young students in Egypt and that was remarkable. I commend you for that. Now everyone wants young people here, which is fantastic but he was a pioneer in that. So thank you very much for that. And Edmond, your comments, please.
>> EDMOND CHUNG: Thank you, Olga. And I think you kind of framed it in a way that I really want to talk about, because it's not just about language. It's also about the culture and the different age groups as well. So just starting off with one of the things that you mentioned about internationalization of some of the aspect and one of which is the internationalized domain names and we have been creating different materials for it and it's very pertinent ‑‑ it's very important that the language ‑‑ I mean, the materials is in the language that matters and relevant, because when you talk about multilingual domain names, well, then, English speaking community doesn't really need them. It's the Chinese speaking, the Arabic speaking. Those who are not speaking English that really need them.
And what is interesting that we have found, especially from the work in UASG, and here, I use the acronym, it really means a universal acceptance steering group but even with the word, you probably don't know what it means. It brings me to another point I want to make is that sometimes acronym seems to ‑‑ or technical speak or jargon seems to create a barrier but sometimes across language, it helps to make us a little bit more precise on some of the things that we want to say. Because our experience, especially with UASG, we understand that it's not just about translation, but about interpretation. Because some of the terminology, some of the technical or the social terminologies are ‑‑ have subtle difference between languages, and if you just translate it directly, you lose the ‑‑ you lose a very important subtleties of it. And I think that's one of the learning that's important.
You mentioned about a youth program and absolutely, when we produce materials for university students, for example, versus for secondary school students, we actually use slightly different materials, and it's not just about language. Of course, speaking in the local language is very important. We do in Hong Kong and we do in Chinese, when we were trying to work with the Japanese and Korean students, we try to make it ‑‑ make those materials into Japanese and Korean respectively, but it's also about the ‑‑ the materials themselves. If we are targeting university students, versus targeting secondary school students, versus primary school students which we are doing with the tiger and Algi Torah program, we are using slightly different terminology and also the use of diagrams, the use of graphics, the use of imagery is different and that's very important, I think for Internet governance when we talk about it, because it's more important that people understand the issues and then they can provide their opinions.
Just like, for example, mass surveillance, when we talk ‑‑ when I talk to people about mass surveillance in a corporate or professional area, I show a picture of dragnet with all the fishes in it and they understand what it means by kind of dragnet surveillance or mass surveillance.
But show this to a primary school student, that doesn't mean anything. What I show is a policemen standing in their bedroom. Now they understand. So it's not just about language. Sometimes it's also about the different terminology, the different graphics that we use, and this is very important, I think, in terms of creating materials and creating content to support Internet Governance.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: So I think it's very interesting what you are saying. It's not only the content. It's how you communicate the content and who are you targeting the content. So if we want to really get the attention of a young or a child, perhaps a nice graphic or that precise message with the image of policemen in the bedroom is very, very, very relevant. Thank you for that.
Do we have Nadira on remote?
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: Hello. Hi. You had hear we?
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Yes, Nadira, how are you?
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: Sorry. I didn't put my camera on. The problem of uploading speed. So this is another issue.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: We can hear you very well. We cannot see you. It's like you are here. We can hear you very clearly in sound.
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: Yeah.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you for being with us. I don't know if you were following the conversation. I know that you live in a region that is mainly speakers ‑‑ people speak Arabic, and you are also involved in ICANN and Internet Governance spaces. So maybe you can share your thoughts about the challenges of our speaking community in having relevant Internet Governance, content and how you manage that and how you communicate to your community and if you can let us know your work with the ISOC chapter in Palestine.
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: Yeah, in a way, because I will focus on the topic of the workshop, and I will share what has ‑‑ what the finding or the current status and the creation of Internet Governance content for the Arabic speaking countries here.
I will start to mention there is a kind of challenge, Arabic digital content is less than 30% the Internet global content, which is really kind of ‑‑ we are not contributing. I'm not mentioning the Internet Governance, but I'm talking about the general, unique content.
A study was directed to Arabic speaking, what their preference about reading on the Internet, 90%, they said that we like to read in Arabic, which is kind of okay. That's expected, but it doesn't have to ‑‑ it doesn't direct us and I can't conclude that they demand Internet Governance content. But in the study by UNESCO, there's empirical evidence. I found people with mother tongue, different than what a policy language written in, or it is advantage position in today's societies, which means ‑‑ which indicates the importance of having Internet Governance content in national languages and national languages.
So it's ‑‑ what the challenges on the ground, we have here in the Arab world, exactly as mentioned, it's the terminologies. The terminologies, like, they are not commonly used in the common media and that's why it's not been really ‑‑ we find content, because also what produced the content are the ‑‑ they produce the content in English, the Arab experts, they produce the content and even communicate in English.
As for the current IG content that we have, in websites, we can find a lot of them, they are reporting on human right violations. And those are kind of project‑based ‑‑ project‑based and they are not sustainable because they are just one ‑‑ once the project ends, the whole ‑‑ the whole website kind of frozen. No update happens.
Another thing also mentioned here about the trans ‑‑ the IG translated content that we have it and it's really badly written, and it's not sensitive to the local culture and it's really a big challenge too.
I have also mentioned about this, an area also Olga you mentioned, that the IG content could be generated from IG‑related events which is unfortunately, in my region we have many workshops, but many, many internet IG‑related events but unfortunately, no ‑‑ no ‑‑ nothing would be documented. Not even videos, kind of available online. Even the Arabic IGF, we couldn't find any session recorded. That's really kind of real challenge.
And finally, the ‑‑ the issue of the intellectual property right laws, we are ‑‑ they are very old and not updated to protect creative online IG publications. That's kind of scanning what we have in the region. I don't want to take more of your time and I will be contributing to the discussion maybe later.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you, Nadira. Can I ask you a clarifying question. You mentioned a 30%, that I can't get what it is about it. Can you repeat that part?
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: Sorry, the 3%. The Arabic content is less than 3% than the Internet content.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: 3% not 30%. I got it wrong. Can you stay with us?
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: Yeah, yeah, I'm here.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: We can hear you very, very well. I will turn to my ladies. Your work is related to security content. It's a very important part of the Internet Governance dialogue and content. So I would get to ‑‑ I would like to know your comments about if you think this content is really good, how do you use this content for education. Do you think it's fundamental for promoting security and based on your experience, how this can be translated into relevant Internet governance content. Does it really happen or do you think it stays this in the books or in the different conference as it doesn't go to the real places where people can consult?
Who wants to start?
>> Well, you touch upon a very ‑‑ a very important question, and when it comes to security, it is both at the same time tangible and intangible and I will give you two examples. For instance, if you are teaching information security, and you are talking about social engineering, at the first chance, it will sound a bit abstract. You try to understand the meaning of these two words, what it means to me as a student, I mostly teach ‑‑ I teach mostly graduates and masters. But it is abstract, unless you use ‑‑ you have a very clear competence based sort of learning goals. Unless you use, for instance, active learning, unless you use frequent class exercises, unless you use story telling.
All of those sort of methodologies help to put the intangible ‑‑ the intangible in tangible concept and then, for instance, if you give examples of cases, just present on Wednesday, on extortion. So I will use a little bit of that. You ‑‑ you have Amanda, the Canadian girl that was blackmailed and sexually exploited. There was the use of malware there. Once this is translated into a real case in which they understand the context, okay, somebody uses malware. Somebody blackmailed this person. Then it becomes quite clear for the student to understand the content and why security is so important.
If you start with definitions, then it's not only abstract and intangible but ‑‑ then you go down to the language. Then you go down to the cultural aspects. I always use cases. I never teach any Internet Governance or cybersecurity or privacy, which are all interchangeable and interrelated without touching upon cases and real cases and actual cases as well.
So that's one approach. So I will give the microphone to my comments.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: I think your message agrees with what Claudio was saying. Barbara, please.
>> I work at an international organization. A regional international organization and it is interesting, I have the opportunity in my work to ‑‑ to prepare, to work on documents that provide a comprehensive understanding of cybersecurity across the entire region and actually, this is ‑‑ it's important to know about the inter‑American system. Back in 2004, it was approved by the OES, the comprehensive inter‑American system strategy, and it's important to create a cybersecurity culture and how important is education.
So that's why it's so important in our program for us to try to have access to information that will provide a regional understanding, what are the main challenges? What are the needs? What are the opportunities available?
And when we prepared these documents, we always tried to adopt a comprehensive approach.
It says we are not going to be producing documents for one specific audience. We are going to produce documents for the entire region. It will be for policymakers, for the technical community, for legal professionals, and even Internet users, researchers, students. And when we prepare this, we make sure that it will be cybersecurity in a comprehensive way, including different information.
As an example, recently in March of this year, we have launched the cybersecurity observatory.com. And you can have access to each ‑‑ the 32 countries of Latin America and the Caribbean of cybersecurity profile which basically includes, what is the security level in terms of policy and strategy, culture and society, education, legal frameworks and technologies.
So it is really interesting that we have this chance of preparing the documents and when we prepare them, we have also ‑‑ we need to work with different stakeholders. It's the intense work of trying to reach government, even within government, it's what are the departments and the agencies involved?
Then we need to reach civil society, think tanks. How is the situation of the culture? How is the culture of fundamental values? We have also to reach the technical community to understand how is the technology part of it? How is the critical infrastructure protection? So it's observatory took two years to develop and now we can work on updating this data because this is from 2015. So it's intense work and then I'm glad to say that I can actually use this resources when I go to countries because part of our works is also helping countries develop cybersecurity national cybersecurity policies and we try to promote the comprehensive views. Not only when you have the ‑‑ it's not only talking about digital and trying to get access and get evidence and how to investigate it. We show the cybersecurity umbrella and all the other aspects that involves this. We want to make sure that any policy that is developed is balanced. It's not violating any compromise, any fundamental value. It is not development concerns. It's not ignoring development, innovation and it's not leading to Internet for an implementation leader. I would like to say that we try.
That's one of the them we try to promote the cybersecurityobservatory.com.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: I thank you for all the work you do. And you have a very experienced team to ‑‑ for remote participation and streaming, audio, and video.
How many languages does the Organization of American States handles when they organize these events or produce content?
>> RENATA AQUINO RIBEIRO: So as I mentioned we have four official languages.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Oh, sorry.
>> RENATA AQUINO RIBEIRO: So basically, English, Portuguese, Spanish and French. But due to lack of resources we are limited to Spanish and English. And if you have events in Brazil, then we have Portuguese and provide translation but it's complicated. It usually focuses on those two languages.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Translation is always a challenge for any budget.
Cynthia, you are a lawyer. All of my friends I'm a lawyer, and I apologize. I'm an engineer and I don't apologize for that. Engineers also do mistakes, don't worry.
It's a joke.
You are an expert in cybersecurity and you are a lawyer, but I see that you produce a lot of your ‑‑ you are involved and produce papers with some ‑‑ with academic level. How do you see this content being impacting the Internet Governance dialogue from your perspective and your experience?
>> CYNTHIA SOLIS: Yeah, well, actually, we are working on the education platforms and the materials for all kind of people. And that's not easy because we ‑‑ we need to reach all the people, children, parents, all kind of people because the cybersecurity and it's a very important meaning for us.
So we need to work also even in the same language, we must adapt the meanings for the people. For example, nowadays we can find really good content in Spanish, but the Spanish of Spain. So that doesn't mean anything maybe for Mexican people. So this is a really good challenge. Also in the same language, we have, for example, in Argentina, we can ‑‑ the Mexican, we can say some words because ‑‑ but, yes, the language and also the different meanings of the words in the different countries are really, really important for us.
So we are working in order to let the legal terms and try to adapt in the comprehensive language for every one of us.
So, for example, we have really good experience because we need to teach engineers. So you are really smart and I prefer you as students than lawyers. Because you are really, really smart, but as lawyers, we need to explain some boring concepts, but that's really being really important.
So I think this is a really good challenge. Both we really loved our work. So maybe in the future one or two years, we will have a really good material for everyone.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you. And before I give the floor to Caterine, I want to share with you an anecdote. When I arrived, I wanted to know what (Speaking Spanish) is.
I speak Spanish. It's my mother tongue and I was talking to a Mexican colleague, and I said, can you explain to what it is. (Speaking Spanish).
Can you explain. And we went through like seven words that I couldn't understand, and we were speaking the same language. So your comment about terminology of different regions and countries is relevant. Yes.
>> I have some reaction to your comments. I think Internet Governance is, per se, interdisciplinary, if not to say, multidisciplinary, meaning we are working at least in all the universities and programs I'm teaching in an interdisciplinary group. We never have only lawyers or only engineers. And I think that's definitely gives an added value to any course. And you need to start that as a foundation for any course related to Internet Governance. If you see ‑‑ if you sit once again from only one carrier, you are sort of limiting the opportunities for them to afterwards also get, for instance, not only comprehension but any job opportunity related to the courses they are taking.
So in my own experience, I'm teaching for a decade now. I have seen very effective results when I teach in interdisciplinary group, rather than to one specific expertise. And you can see the examples that come from their own students are kind of also sharing the knowledge but also exchanging points of view.
So then the professor, the teacher is only the sort of mediator to, you know, sort of make the bridges between an engineer for an IT or a governance person or a lawyer. So you become the median, but they have the tools. They have already the foundations on the knowledge. So I absolutely advise for anybody here who is working in designing courses to reach a diverse and interdisciplinary group to have always this in mind.
Besides a language, besides a content and besides a multicultural aspects, it has to be an interdisciplinary because we see all the cases we are handling in the real scenarios do need an interdisciplinary team and also we do have ‑‑ I mean in most of the courses I teach, I always have projects so they are very hands on.
And once again, I ‑‑ I think the departure from the cases from the projects gives a lot of practical knowledge to students and grasp the practical aspects and the challenges that are related to Internet Governance.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you for that. And before giving the floor to you, I think Edmond made a very interesting comment and I agree with you about acronyms. Acronyms oh, now I don't hate acronyms. I think they are good to name a precise concept. And it's part of the ‑‑ of the language of this space and very useful. I find them useful and it's good to know that. So we have prepared a list of acronyms. Of course there are many.
But I would not be against using acronyms and on the contrary, I think it helps bringing a base content, concept to really address specific ideas. Renata, you want to add something?
>> RENATA AQUINO RIBEIRO: I to share something. Nowadays, it's currently open a survey that we are conducting to try to understand what is economic impact of cyber instance in the country. And I want to share how we developed this instrument to try to gather this information. So it's very important to talk about education and preparing material and to have the understanding of how it is, the situation of the country and the region.
And two interesting things. One was that there was one specific session when we were developing the methodology that basically was to discuss how do we make an instrument sound Colombian. Because we have Spanish speakers there, it has to be a specific way that it would be easy for organizations in country to understand.
And plus, we have to consider that this instrument would be available ‑‑ we need to get ‑‑ we need to have ‑‑ get access to information several types of organizations. So also work to find a plain language that could ‑‑ our organizations understand us. And second when we are developing this, we work with people who have economic background, and statistical background and cybersecurity everyone, policymakers because they will be the one using this data to formulate better policies.
It's what I a multidisciplinary group and work and developing this. And it's important for every project and information to try to understand how is the current situation, we have to go through this process and fine the right language will be construed easily by the target audience and also that we can use it by different group leaders.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you very much.
For giving floors to the colleague in the audience that are waving and want to make the comments. I would like to give the floor to Dustin and Jackie. They are the head of an interesting project which is ICANNWiki which has thousands of articles in English, but they are moving towards including other languages. So dominions, Latin America is helping with content, and other colleagues from Latin America and Spain are adding Spanish content. Also, I think, Edmond is cooperating with Chinese content and Swahili and Portuguese and so it's growing steadily into other ‑‑ into other languages and cultures.
So how do you see the demand for the ‑‑ do you have any ‑‑ any inside information about if people is requesting or is consulting, perhaps other languages more than English or how many people request ‑‑ I don't know if you can share some comments about how you see this opening the diversity in your website as a new stage and growing.
>> DUSIN PHILLIPS: Yes, so in terms of the demand, when we go to ICANN meetings and hold edit‑a‑thons and reach out to people who speak different languages, there's often enthusiasm and a lot of people want to see content in their language, not only for themselves because they are at a meeting and learning about all of these interesting concepts and they want to take it home and teach their communities about it in a language that they understand.
And we have a lot of inquiries about this, but we have run into the problem, we have done well in Spanish and Chinese and Swahili, and we're just launching Portuguese. Those are all very widely spoken languages. What about these local languages? There's still a demand for it, but it's hard to get the ‑‑ a sustainable model in place to translate all of the languages that are out there.
And we have used ‑‑ we have taken a number of different approaches throughout the years, and it started off as basically an extension of our site that allowed people to translate content directly. We moved on from that and created standalone sites in different languages because we found that it wasn't necessarily effective to make them directly translate the existing English content.
The new system allows them to build it in a way that's relevant to them, and I think the best example of that is the work that we have done in East Africa, in Kenya and Tanzania mostly in translating Swahili.
What we have done is basically fund one to two‑day workshop where we try to build some capacity. They learn about the content and the issues that are relevant to them, and then at the end we host an edit‑a‑thon and say you are from this region. Tell us what's relevant to you, and build the articles on that, because that is going to be more effective than us saying we have all of these great articles. Why don't you directly translate it, and it goes back to what Edmond was saying about it's not just about the translation. It's about the interpretation of that, and the framing of it in a relevant way.
If they are able to create an independent article on these issues, rather than directly translating it, then it will be a more effective message, I believe.
And, you know, we had a number of different ‑‑ I think it ‑‑ it's been a good experience because the articles that they wrote about weren't what I expected to see.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Okay.
>> DUSIN PHILLIPS: They were writing about What's app and Facebook. So they ‑‑ you know, I would have said, write about ICANN. Write about ALAC.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Why should I care?
>> DUSIN PHILLIPS: You need to show why the Internet matters to them. And the governance.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you. Do you want to add something? I will go at audience. I have first Glen there and then I have some other questions to the panelists if we have the time. Glen?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, everybody, I'm Glen McKnight, with Novello, a part of ICANN, a multi‑stakeholder. I want to show you the way I approach content for Internet Governance. I was contacted by IEEE and I produced a fairly extensive course using Eli anatomy. It is a very good product, but my approach is curated material and I was heavily inspired by Diplo, and Diplo just released their recent book in Spanish and English last night at our book launch. And what we did is because you have probably seen me at ICANN meetings for the last number of years, I have met a number of people across the ‑‑ the ICANN space and I have done a lot of very short, very poignant videos. And so much of my content is actually augmented by visuals. So there's lots of shared video. I made them YouTube based so one could put subtitles in and it's easy to edit these, using various different tools. Don't rely on YouTube for the subtitles.
You have a legal obligation, particularly in the US and I mentioned this to ICANN, you have to go and fix those subtitles. It's an obligation. But what I'm doing, and what Diplo, all of that stuff is good, and it's stuff that Olga and Santisha and others who have done the courses. You need to be a part of the community and attend the courses, like Olga does, like you will be doing Rio. As I was saying, my content was very skewed to engineers. So everyone takes a slice of the pie and my slice of the pie was focused on engineers.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you, Glen. Thank you for the propaganda. The next school of Internet Governance will be 3 to 7 April, call for application is open now. So go to our website. The forum is in three languages, Spanish, English and Portuguese and we give fellowship to all of our students and if you don't get a fellowship being you can follow all the programs online. We will have translation this three languages this time.
It's you, Renata, and I have you there. Can you introduce yourself.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Sure. Good morning my name is Corine, and I work with Article 19, the human rights NGO and so we have a lot of experience working internet governance at the logical layer of the Internet. So assigning names and numbers and the engineering task force. And so something I wanted to add to the discussion when talking about good content for Internet Governance, a lot of this has already been covered, especially in diversity of languages is the fact that what we have been doing right now developing with CEMA, a guide for the Internet media and Internet Governance.
We look at a community where we see that they have a direct state in Internet Governance but they are not necessarily very involved at this point in time because they don't have the resources or because they don't have the knowledge. And what we have been trying to do is actually translate all of these Internet Governance issues so that they make sense to this particular community. And I think that's a thing where a lot ground can still be gained because all the people that are here, and I think ICANNWiki is doing excellent work on this, are being engaged. We need to reach out to other people who don't naturally come to these places and we need to facilitate their participation as well.
I want to see what are the best practices that they have collected.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you. I think you make an interesting point and sometimes we talk to each other here and we want to include the people from the boundaries who are interested but not included.
We will go to Renata and then the lady over there.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes on the issue of experience. I was going to talk about our Portuguese language governance of the I 10 edge that has over 1,200 members on our Facebook group. And it's really interesting how that began as well, just as Dustin put and Corinne as well, from sort of an organic effort.
Part members built the group. So what were we interested in? And for example, to understand ICANN, we needed to understand what is a Working Group? What is a Working Party? What is the difference between them? What are ‑‑ what are the free meetings that ICANN has. And from the school of internet governance came an interesting perspective of authorship, between members the Internet Governance, global community. So we had ‑‑ we began the group at the Brazilian school of Internet Governance with just two or three moderators and then it came more moderators and reapply in the Internet school of Internet governance which Satish said, we could bring more people to this group.
And we can identify ourselves as the global community of Internet Governance which speaks Portuguese and that's fantastic. I think it's really about having this space where one takes ownership of the content. There's appropriation, instead of really just having a ready made as Nadira said, sometimes poorly written material that you don't really have any ways of identifying or learning from it. So that's the most amazing thing about content and Internet Governance in such organically grown initiatives.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: We have a question or a comment there. You have a mic? There.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello, my name is Julia. I'm with the IGF program, I'm Brazilian. It's a comment, not a question. So basically the standard is really interesting for us to really limit. I think we need to have our presence here as Latin American youth. It's being active and empower ourselves and to be representative. In this sense, language become a barrier for us to be active and representative in these debates because speaking English becomes a filler, which we like it or not.
And if you look at the youth here from Brazil, we are representing just a part of the youth in terms of society's representation. We have a couple of LGBT youth, including myself. We have two or three youth that are black, and we mostly have youths with privilege, socioeconomic background.
So finally, I think we should start to put digital technologies working for us and for our empowerment, like simultaneous translation, which, for example, here in this IGF has not been a resource used properly, because yesterday and today, on this very panel, I'm seeing a person speaking Spanish and the simultaneous translation being spoken in Spanish and not the content of what the speaker was talking about.
So if I'm going to speak Spanish right now. (Speaking Spanish).
The translation, you guys are going to see will not translate it. You know in the sense, this is important to ‑‑ to give in the sense you guys told here that budget becomes a barrier for translation. But at the same time, the importance given to the matter ends up reinforcing the fact that relatively compared to other costs for the event, this is not that important, you know?
So cost is a relative issue. But in ‑‑ and this is not just a technical matter. This is rather a cultural problem, in my opinion, that takes the importance out of the debate's quality to have each people speaking in the internet in the way they view it, just like Renata just talked it.
Language is not just about words. It's also about perspective. And in a multi‑stakeholder model, different perspectives not only matter but are the backbone of the internet governance model itself. Thank you.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you very much and I would love that the budget would not be such a relevant issue for everything that you organize and it is. I know that they have made efforts to have translation in more rooms, but I know how challenged that is. It's not only budget, it's also space.
Let me give the floor to Edmond who wants to add something.
>> EDMOND CHUNG: Yes, I think that's a very good point, and ‑‑ Edmond here, sorry.
One of the things that I think could, you know, even without the immediate budget increase here, is the utilization of the remote participation tools, and the reason why I bring about this is we had a discussion at another session, talking about remote participation specifically, and the text discussion can help bridge some of that barrier, and definitely, you know, machine translation for text is much more readily available than audio and this live scribe situation. And that really doesn't really require a lot more budget to create and we should encourage even, you know, people on site to actually go to the ‑‑ go to the remote participation tool and use text to communicate and write now I actually see that there's a comment there. So just a note.
But this is under utilized, I think, in the IGF kind of area. We are under utilizing this remote participation tool and, in fact, language, it's not perfect, but at least the first step, we could probably have, you know, people type their original language and also show a preferred kind of translation immediately for that.
Of course, machine translation is not perfect, but at least you can probably get the gist of it.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you. We have a remote comment?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, one question. I come from Kenya. My question to the panelists, how do you do translation by parents ‑‑ sorry.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: No. No. No worries. I have no glasses.
>> EDMOND CHUNG: I can read it.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: I didn't bring my classes.
>> EDMOND CHUNG: So the question is from Boniface Botaba from Kenya and's worked closely with us on our Swahili translation and his question is: How do you ensure the continued translation by participants without them experiencing volunteer burnout?
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Yes, it's a fantastic question. Thank you Boniface for joining us.
No worries. Language barrier, you see? Do we have other questions or comments from the audience. I will start with Claudio.
>> EDMOND CHUNG: I can respond to Boniface. Well, Boniface, I hope that you are not getting burned out because you have been a huge part of our success in the Swahili initiative.
But I think it's a matter of casting a broader net and community sourcing it so that you are not relying on one or two people to translate all the content because A, it will lead to burnout, and B, it's not sustainable, because when the one or two people that you rely on move on to the next thing, then you are kind of back to point A and you have to figure out where to go from there.
So it's really about building a larger network and a larger community that all want to see the same thing happen and working on that goal together so that when one or two people take a step back, there's somebody ready to fill their shoes.
And actually ‑‑ I actually wanted to address the question ‑‑ Corinne, right? That Corinne posed, and I think that a good way to reach the people that are not coming to these events is to find people that are attending these events and try to use them as ambassadors and use them to reach out into their communities and hopefully that will start to build a network effect that gets to you where you want to be.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you, Dustin. Before giving the floor Claudio, we will take another comment from our audience.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good morning, everyone. I will go back to the point mentioned by Nadira about the 3% availability of content in Arabic. So more than 3% is 1% of that content is available ‑‑ the digital content, and we ‑‑ I think in the EMEA region, it's not nonavailability of translators or the nonavailability of people wanting to translate languages. I mean, the major fundamental challenge is censorship. So a lot of people, they don't really have the chance to access the Internet and access online platforms and so they don't really have the chance to have an open and free access to the Internet to be able to translate the language.
It's not only a cultural problem or a language problem, it's a technical problem. For example, we don't have a lot of ISPs. They don't see a benefit of having the content written in their own language. It's not only the linguistic but a technical and censorship factor as well.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you very much. Claudio?
>> CLAUDIO LUCENA: Thank you, Olga. A couple of remarks concerning Edmond's intervention of the user machine learning and also other tools. I think this has been taken out, Ed Monday. This is a new environment. If we didn't have back then ten years it was because certainly the tools were not mature enough for that, but I'm sure that's taken note of. There are other factors than the output, but this is something that we will discuss from now on.
And then also what Kathy touched on and then Glen stressed out, the necessity to speak different, not only languages themselves but technical languages, even stresses more the importance of the initiatives of Internet Governance schools. Let me pay another tribute here to Olga, as a coordinator, as an organizers school of Internet Governance.
There's no we can be together. They are speaking more languages, where we speak journalism, economy, business, administration, law, engineering, computer science to name just a few. So this is really a transforming experience for the ones of you who are interested and still interested. This would be a very interesting project or program to engage in.
But there's one thing that really gives us a lot of hope in this scenario is that not only we need to understand each other, we want to understand each other. Most of us here do not speak English as a native language, yet we are here, overcoming those barriers with that sad and annoying language barrier in the constraint of the budget but still we are here.
I'm deeply, deeply touched by my already large and ever growing community of Spanish‑speaking friends when we talk and discuss for hours and they just pretend they understand me when I'm trying to speak Spanish. Really, that's very, very, interesting. And that shows the need to understand. And then we are preparing, fine tuning things for this ‑‑ for the panel, Olga suggested that we take a look at the CPLP, the community of Portuguese language speaking countries. I have been based in Lisbon for the past two years and Brazil, the topic is called governance Internet. It turns out in Portugal, there's no important thing. Governance of the Internet is not a thing. In Portugal, we call it (speaking Portuguese) it has a different language. And it's all about languages making slight differences.
But still we interact very well. I think in terms of the material that we produce, a joint effort between Brazilian and Portuguese universities, on encyclopedia of international law, and I really made the point that we should include Internet Governance related entries in the encyclopedia, and the human resources that we arrange.
But if we look at the other Portuguese‑speaking countries there allegation not the same interactions. For historical purposes, Portugal is closer to the language line Timor and others but not Brazil. It's inning. From Brazil we have a cooperation agreement with the government of Timor through which we receive ‑‑ we receive around 70 students at a time for our graduate and undergraduate courses in Brazil.
The students come to Brazil, Portuguese is a working language in East Timor, but I wouldn't know if it is the most important language that you should speak in Timor and I don't think it opens a lot of doors if our Internet Governance material arrives there because the students come for our graduate and undergraduate courses through this cooperation agreement with East Timor, they have to spend six months in our university before they can be integrated in the graduate or undergraduate courses because they have to get used to not only as the Portuguese of the language but the jargon of the Portuguese language that they will inbound touch with. So it's ‑‑ I will leave it here and maybe make another intervention later.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Very interesting before. Giving to the floor no Nadira, I would like to receive her comments about the questions and the comments from the audience. I want to tell you an anecdote. Before starting the school of the Internet Governance this year, it was 180 fellows. So I prepared some materials and introduction in three languages and I put them in context through Google list.
Immediately, there were three Working Groups one in English, one in Portuguese and one in Spanish. As you are doing in Costa Rica, it's still live. It was immediate. I tried to keep them all in the same list, but the language broke them immediately into three different groups.
Other comments from the audience? No. Nadira, would you like to add something to the questions and comments from the audience that we have had to far?
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: Hi. Just one point regarding to the contributor of the content. We have to have ‑‑ coming from ‑‑ I'm talking about coming from academic background. I can't really contribute something if I don't have enough knowledge about it. So that most important to prepare the people who wants to contribute to translate, to have a clear understanding about a certain issue, to be competent in it, and then to contribute to it.
There's another aspect, what was mentioned about burnout. It's ‑‑ there have to be another program about some kind of incentives. Without incentives people ‑‑ they will be burned out. So there is a ‑‑ it has to be. It goes to go, competency and there's encouragement and there's acknowledgment of people doing this work. That's my point. I hope that's also people contribute and bring more people to on the certain issue of Internet Governance and not repeating and copy and paste, because there's a lot of ‑‑ I could see, and I could read whatever is in English and common and see it and read in Arabic, it's so broken.
So even, like those directing the list, to develop and keep updating the terminologies. Languages are rich. It is rich, and so people also have to work on the terminologies to bring it up to the level, so everybody could hear pane understand what it's talking about, about governance, in Arabic, not everybody knows about it, even people in the government itself.
When we use the word governance, they hardly know about it. They know ‑‑ they practice it but when we put this terminology on it, as describing what they are doing, they don't really ‑‑ they don't ‑‑ no match of it.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you.
>> NADIRA ALARAJ: That's my point of view.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you very much. And Boniface, if you are staying there remotely participating with us, thank you for your question before.
If there are no more questions or comments from the audience, we have like ten minutes and I would go again with our panelists with some general questions. Maybe you can address the ones that you prefer. Intellectual property issues. We have here some lawyers. Can we take information from other side and copy it as it is, which other things should we have in mind before taking content or references from other sources? How do you see in general ‑‑ I think that the versions are diverse about using this automatic translating tools. Are they useful? Are they okay? Should we avoid them?
And about burnout, we already had some comments and how could we have the content updated? How could we avoid to have websites without information in how can we flag them or let the people know that they are not updated and about this, you can take the one that you prefer and make your final comment and then we can close.
Who would like to start?
>> Well, talking about intellectual property, I think one solution, it's kind of license, like ‑‑ I forgot the name the commons license, because I think you are right, the translation, it's a modification of the region. So you need certain permissions. So this kind of license, it's good solutions.
But also, I think as material creators we can put that this material can be translated, because the most important thing in the Internet Governance is to share the knowledge of all the stakeholders. So I think everyone that creates the materials can put this little sentence that we get the permission to translate and modify the content in order to update the content because that's where the content change almost every day.
And I think it's a good solution. So ‑‑ but let me ask you something, if I don't put that, and the website is online, which is the intellectual property law that it is the one from Argentina? It's the one of the website that it ‑‑ it's hosted in the United States? It's ‑‑ how can people have ‑‑ maybe we could have a simple guide for helping people in producing content and not having problems in the future.
And if I want to use the creative comments license, where should I go to get the knowledge and the know‑how to do that?
>> Well, the copyright law, it's based in the Berne Convention, so it's international treaty, but it depends, for example, if the contents in Argentinian law.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: So say it's a dot org and it's hosted in the United States. That's a challenging question.
>> Yes, for example in the Berne Convention, you can ‑‑ well, you can, for example, but this sentence because the creative comments license is made by the US law, but it could help any way.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Okay. So it's something that we have in mind when you produce cob tent and put it online to also think about the source, if it's available or not and under which license. Any comments?
>> Well, in our case the Organization of American States we all report to use creative comments and we actually encourage people to use it and as much as they can, for instance, we have a cybersecurity awareness toolkit which is basically to address all the Member States, but for anyone to develop a cybersecurity awareness campaign and we encourage user material. We just produce everything to encourage and look about creative comments even when we are learning. What would be the best way to make sure that people would have access to our material?
So it's an effort that we can do.
>> Sorry, I forgot something. If the content is modified or used by educational proposals. Proposals, you have an exception of the law.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Okay. Claudio? Caterine and Claudio.
>> CATERINE GARCIA P. VAN HOOGSTRATEN: I would like to add the importance of consulting open sources and I think for us academics writing articles as well, we are bearing that in mind when we want to reach out, you know, a good audience, a grassroots and I don't know our academic networks. So we are ‑‑ I mean, in my case, I'm writing now my articles bearing in mind that I want to have it open sourced. So therefore, issues of intellectual property will not be a problem for those would want to use my articles.
I just wanted to react to Glen's questions on engagement, because she had a very important question. She mentions how engaged more people, when they are not interested, and I have been dealing with this as well. I can give you just one simple example. Whenever there are trainings that gathers different sort of people, for instance, for ‑‑ we had some ‑‑ a month ago, I was participating in a boot camp. It was a women in tech boot camp. And it was generally to show what are the successful cases and so people were presenting there and already working in some companies or working for some more governments and so on and so forth.
And what we did is knowing that we already have the audience there, we brought some of our current courses, you know, some leaflets or flyers and we also engaged in conversations with them. So exactly what do you like? What makes you ‑‑ what clicks with you from, for instance, cybersecurity or from Internet Governance or privacy or whatever sort of specific content?
And I think that engagement of having some of the professors in these boot camps already creates more curiosity and it also bridges this space between somebody would is an academic who is sitting in some university somewhere, and the person who might be interested to engage in these courses. So something to add to that.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you. Claudio?
>> CLAUDIO LUCENA: One first comment about jurisdiction. I have think if jurisdiction over this digital matters were settled, we wouldn't have had three or four packed panels discussing jurisdiction. So we do have a problem with that.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Yes.
>> CLAUDIO LUCENA: Apart from that, it's a concrete issue. Not in this very particular theme of Internet Governance. I haven't heard of an intellectual property dispute in the world concerning internet governance related material. That's for one reason, you have correctly the said, the people who are engaged in Internet Governance engage for sharing. They have this aim. But it would be a good exercise to look for an intellectual dispute concerning the Internet Governance, well, not to flag anyone because it would be a dispute of someone who has produced their own material and then we could understand it and see how it works. But then I don't think it's a problem in the particular case of the material we are speaking here.
But on the unfit content, or I don't know if exactly that is what you mean. On the best contents that we have, this has become an issue recently. I acknowledge the relevant of the issue but I think ‑‑ I still think it's too late for us to flagging content on the basis on something that we don't have the material yet. And Brazil, for example, we have ‑‑ we know the courses where they are coming from. The CGI has a very good source, and Renata is here with us and is doing an amazing job in the university. Universities in this environment have the advantage ‑‑ the advantage of being ‑‑ well, a prioria, a reliable source. We are having our YouTube channels and interviews with subtitles from I. O university. The amazing job of my colleagues also join.
Partly or mostly, I would say because of the fact that I they have internalized the importance of interdisciplinary, they have engineers and economists and business people, I think stressing the importance and the credibility of this these sources is a good practice. Flagging the ones which we don't think are reliable enough this is too early for that, I would say.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Okay. That's a good comment. Edmond, Dustin, your comments?
>> EDMOND CHUNG: Sure. Just a quick comment on creative comments. I absolutely support it, and, in fact, there were localized versions of the license, in fact, over round 60 jurisdictions so it could be used in different places not just the US. And also, it could be internet ‑‑ there's an international kind of version for some of jurisdictions, it's not covered. So you can try to pick the right one.
And definitely nor most of the materials at DOT.ASIA, some of the programs that we do, most of them are under creative commons, including IG, actually. That's the one point.
And you asked a very interesting question. The machine translation, whether it's appropriate or not, in certain situations. And I was sitting back here thinking about it.
Well, it's probably not useful when you have a heated debate, you know, people are very heated and things get lost in the translation, well, instigate problems but here, I think in a very calm situation, I think, you know, calm discussion of issues, should be ‑‑ should be very useful, because most of the time you need ‑‑ you can get the gist of what people are talking about, and more importantly, you can express yourself in your own language, and that I think is more important than absolute, you know, accuracy in terms of the translation. So, yeah, I was thinking, you know, if we are expecting a heated debate, that's probably not a good idea, because it will instigate more problems.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: I see. That's a good point. Dustin?
>> DUSTIN PHILLIPS: I think in terms of keeping the translated content updated and relevant to reflect the most current state of things, I think creative comments is definitely the answer, which it's in the form that we use, with media wiki that allows anyone to come in and update it, in realtime, or whether it's putting out your own article and allowing others to build on that, so if you have started a project, and you no longer have time for, it that information is not lost. Somebody can take it and build on it and it ‑‑ you know, standing on the shoulders of giants, if you will. Just building on past works so that we don't have to start at point A every time.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Okay. Any other final comment.
>> EDMOND CHUNG: Just a quick note on that. Creative comments, those on panels is very portative. What is interesting in UASG, when we are working on the IDN and some of the materials, it's interesting to receive advice from, for example, ICANN legal and asking why would you use, you know, creative comments because we want to share it.
Yes, we write you something so you can ‑‑ everyone can share. But the point about, you know, creative comments is it's a common base. Everyone can understand, you know, with a few icons whether they can do, rather than reengineer a thing. A lot of times, corporate legal may not necessarily completely grasp that idea. So that's one challenge, I think, that we need to think about too.
>> OLGA CAVALLI: Thank you very much. Any final comment from any panelist, audience?
Okay. Thank you very much. I think we had a very, very interesting session, and I thank you, Nadira for weekend us in Palestine, and thank you Boniface for being with us from Kenya. And please, an applause to our lovely panelists.
(Applause).
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you have. See you all around today. And if I don't see you, have a good flight home and a good trip back home.
(End of session 10:28 a.m. Central Time)