Sixth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum
27 -30 September 2011
United Nations Office in Nairobi, Nairobi, Kenya
September 28, 2011 - 16:30PM
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The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the Sixth Meeting of the IGF, in Nairobi, Kenya. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> PAM COVINGTON: Jombo. That got your attention. Good afternoon and welcome to workshop No. 417, can digital citizenship scale into emerging and developing countries effectively, and should it? My name is Pam Covington. I'm with VeriSign in Washington, D.C., and we have a very -- and I'm your moderator today. We have a very exciting panel of adults and young people, who will give you an overview and exciting discussion of digital citizenship and if it can scale and what does it mean to young people and what does it mean to adults. And that will be our interactive discussion today.
We have seven adult panelists including Jim Prendergast, our remote participant moderator over there, and nine youths participating today, seven here and two remote participation in Egypt. So that will be very exciting to hear what the Egyptian youths have to say.
Without further delay, I would like to have Douglas start and we'll go around the room and have all the panelists and young people introduce themselves briefly, name and affiliation. Thank you.
>> Good afternoon, Douglas Harre from NetSafe in New Zealand.
>> I'm Anne Collier with ConnectSafely.org in the U.S.
>> I'm David Miles, Family Online Safety Institute.
>> I'm Yomna Omran from the Ministry of Communication and Technology in Egypt.
>> I'm Sam Baranowski with Imagine the Internet, from Elon University in the United States.
>> I'm Kellye Coleman, also from Imagine the Internet from Elon University.
>> I'm Alex Everett and I'm here with the Youth Adjunct Project.
>> I'm Becca and I'm here with the same thing as Alex.
>> I'm Will Gardner. I'm the chief executive, Childnet International.
>> I'm also here with Childnet and the youth project.
>> I'm Douglas and I'm also here with Childnet of the youth ITF project.
>> I'm (off mic) and I'm also here from Imagine the Internet from Elon University.
>> Hi, I'm Kim (off mic) and I'm with trustworthy computing and Microsoft corporation.
>> Well, thank you all for coming. It is so exciting to be here, it's exciting for me personally to be in Nairobi and actually on the African continent for the first time in my life and it's wonderful that it's in such a beautiful country.
So this is really exciting, because we really together, modeling digital citizenship as we discuss it. So to kick off this multi-stakeholder discussion with lots of different voices and perspectives, the question of what digital citizenship is. It's something we're all working out together globally because we have many different concepts of citizenship around the world. We're really developing consensus around this idea. We're in process. And that's kind of an exciting thing, I think, and it's really wonderful to get as many perspectives in that process as possible.
So we're figuring it out together because for the first time earth has a user-driven social medium that expands the entire planet and ignores national borders. So the Internet is kind of changing humanity's idea of citizenship, even as we try to define the digital kind. And citizenship isn't just digital, is it? It needs to embrace on-line and off-line because the Internet's most active participants, youth, don't really draw a line between on-line and off-line life. It's just life, right?
Youth are among the most active participants, so we need to be in continuous conversation with them. We need their help in defining it, modeling it and practicing it, which is why we have a large youth panel today. They are needed in arriving at this consensus. So maybe we can get a little closer to that consensus today because there is a growing interest in arriving at consensus. We're hearing it throughout the IGF.
There are four key aspects that I hear a lot when I look at the research, when I talk to researchers and youth risk practitioners in my kind of work, what I hear is -- well, actually there are five. The first one is, and I learned some of this at the IGF in Vilnius last year, from Childnet panelists and others at that session. Participation, or civic engagement, social or community activism on-line. The second one that we hear a lot about is norms of behavior or good citizenship. We hear that a lot. It's behavior, etiquette. That seems to be another aspect that everybody talks about.
Another one is rights and responsibilities. This is one that comes immediately to mind when they hear the word "citizenship," and we can define what those are together today.
A fourth one is a sense of membership or belonging. You know, in the past it's been belonging to a country or a culture, so what is that -- what do we belong to on-line? Is it a particular on-line community or a group of them? Is it a school community with expression on-line? Is it an interest community with expression on-line as well as off-line? I think it's possible that the most basic and important definition is learning how to be good to one another, on-line as well as off-line. I bring that up because the last key point I'd like to offer is even though it's still a little vague, digital citizenship is not just a nice idea, it's not a luxury or theory. We're finding out from the research that it's protective. It is -- the research has shown us that aggressive behavior on-line more than doubles the risk to the aggressor. So civil behavior, respectful behavior protects us.
And the research has also shown us that functioning well in community, in a social network, on-line or off-line, enhances well-being. So respectful behavior and a strong sense of community are protective and empowering. Users' awareness that this is so engages them in the experience, and this engagement or active participation itself is protective too. It turns users into stakeholders and citizens in their own well-being, that of their peers and fellow community members and the safety of the community as a whole.
Now, I'd like to introduce you to Douglas Harre. He's from NetSafe in New Zealand and he'll give you more context and background.
>> Thanks, Anne. Yeah, I'm from New Zealand and New Zealand is a small country of about four and a half million people at the very end of the Pacific ocean. The next stop is the South Pole after you leave New Zealand, and it's about half the size of Kenya, so it's a reasonable size. It's the first country in the world to see the new day. And famously in 1893 it was the first country in the world to give woman the rule to vote. So it's fitting as some of these new ideas, New Zealand has always been a leader in the cyber safety area. So really from the late '90s, the New Zealand Ministry of education and other organizations in New Zealand have a range of approaches.
What we're discovering now, though, in 2011 that those approaches we have been using are increasingly not standing up to the new environment that we have, and in particular have new and increasingly mobile environment has presented new challenges for educators and creating an environment where teachers and students are confident in the safe and secure use of technologies.
So in New Zealand we're now in the process of changing the model of the approach that has served us well over the last ten years or so. Previous models of school cyber safety relied on teachers and as administrators preventing access to specific (off mic), usually through some sort of signed document and some sort of filtering and blocking, has been a very prevalent method around the world. This is increasingly irrelevant to students. Signing a document protects the (off mic). It doesn't educate the student. And filtering has many challenges that are well-known to you all. Today a student turning up in a classroom with an Android phone with a 3G can bypass that filtering.
School-based technologies, nor school policies will protect students outside the school's own technology infrastructure. So in New Zealand we are increasingly looking towards our own curriculum and the citizenship component of that curriculum and building in a new way of approaching cyber safety.
More and more students will be accessing technology over which the school has no direct control. So filtering in particular options need to be part of a wider citizenship programme that is responsive to the needs of the learner.
Students need to build skills and knowledge to effectively manage challenge in cyberspace themselves and not have it imposed on them by others. Ongoing staff and student education programmes were fundamental to keeping pace with changing technology in schools, and so educators, and those of us in here who are teachers themselves, educators need to increase their capability to guide young people in building their own cyber safety schools. As teachers we teach our students about road safety, water safety, dog safety. We need to see digital safety as well as in the core skills that a young person needs to safely negotiate the changing environment.
Digital literacy is important as it gives us the ability to understand and fully participate in the digital world that is fundamental to digital citizenship. It is the combination of technical and social skills that enable a person to be successful and safe in the information age. Like literacy in citizens, which provide young people with the skills to participate in the workforce, digital literacy has become an essential skill for a young person to be confident, connected and actively involved as a lifelong learner. It's a crucial part of our curriculum outcomes that we prepare our students for a world that no one can accurately predict but that they will live in.
We also believe that the biggest digital risk to an individual is exclusion from digital opportunities. So in finishing I would like to say that students need to be self-managing themselves as a longer term argument. It's an educational argument. It's a difficult argument, but in the longer term it will win out. So from our perspective at the very end of the Pacific and at the end of the world, the challenge remains that as part of a wider citizenship debate.
>> Thank you, Douglas. Now I'd like to turn it over to David Miles to speak about the Family Online Safety Institute initiative.
>> Good afternoon. Two years ago FOSI started a very ambitious project to track family on-line safety around the world, and that's no small task. We have a very large team of researchers and we aggregate the content from 194 countries around the world, including 54 in Africa. And so I thought today it might be useful to focus on three countries here, and I've handed out some briefing notes which cover more countries, six or seven countries, including Rwanda and South Africa, and for those of you who want to look, go to FOSI GRID, and it will be in the type search entry. And I'd like to start with Kenya, because interesting enough, there is an amazing example of best practice here in this city. And it's Kibera, which is one of the Africa's largest slums. Just under a million people live there, and for those that come from Kenya I'm sure you're familiar with it.
But a couple years ago an amazing project was funded by (off mic) and Unicef, which equipped young people with 13 or 14 youngsters with GPS enabled mobile phones to map Kibera as a community. Now, that's quite an extraordinary thing to do but away they went and mapped the health clinic and the park and the roads and the streets. What was exciting is they used that technology to go much, much further. They mapped crime hot spots and safe areas, talked about events and then created a Web site called the voice of Kibera, and if you've not looked at it it's worth looking at. It's a remarkable project with far-reaching benefits for Kibera's citizens.
I think one of the interesting things about the project from a digital citizenship perspective which we're discussing today is that it's a reversal of the normal approach. We often talk about applying off-line notions of citizenship to young people's on-line lives. However, this goes the other way. This is technology driving community cohesion and citizenship and it's a fine example of that.
I think it's worth taking a step back for a moment, and GRID shows us this, that Africa is probably the least developed of countries in the regions we cover. That's not to say there aren't wonderful pockets of excellence like in Kenya. Africa has just under a billion citizens, but it only has around 12% Internet access. Interestingly enough, 60% of that access is in eight African countries, so the remaining 44 or 45 have very little coverage, which I think is quite interesting. However, there are already 500 million mobile phones, and anybody that travels around Africa will see that. So it's clear that the feature of Internet access and communication in Africa is a mobile one, and that's reflected in mobile transactions and mobile money systems here in Kenya and other parts of Africa.
My next example of best practice is from Zambia, and this talks the challenges of transmitting concepts of digital citizenship from developed early CD countries to last developed regions like Africa. We're work being with the World Bank in Asia right now and it is lessons we're length there are that socioeconomic conditions and language are a huge barrier. Let alone Africa, which has its own tribal traditions and unique cultures. And in Zambia we found two really exciting projects. The I school project and the other one is called the grapho learning project and in your notes you'll have links to all of those. Both work in a number of Zambian local language. English is widely spoken but the grapho project in England has developed learning languages on mobile phones and has led to huge up take particularly in rural areas.
And lastly I'm going to talk about Nigeria, and this deals with the other side of the Internet, which are the risks and the criminalization of youth. A few years ago close to 15% of European on-line scams were committed from West Africa. In Nigeria many university students funded their university fees through core centres organized by highly organized criminal gangs. This is just one example that we see both in Africa, South America and Asia of the criminalization of the Internet, particularly in the developing world, human trafficking, prostitution, radicalization. Those spaces are being filled by criminal elements, and so we have to be very careful, particularly as the institutional governance and law enforcement in some countries is not able to cope with the demands that that places on them.
The response to that was a multi-stakeholder approach led by Microsoft, a really, really exciting example of uses of social media -- and media to redirect students to more responsible and legal use. As a result there's actually a tangible and measurable drop in on-line crime in Europe, which is an amazing consequence of dealing with the problem head-on in the local culture. So I hope these three examples give you some context of Africa's approach to citizenship as we see it through GRID. I think the Kibera project shows us we can create cohesive and responsible use. It's the shaping of the real world but the other way around. It also shows the power of something that we're beginning to see in the project that we're working on, on the importance of self-determination through technology. By bringing in our own practices, we actually suppress local innovative solutions to countries' problems, so we have to be very sensitive to those cultural norms.
And in Zambia it's a great example of overcoming the language issues that are involved, and next year will be hugely exciting, particularly in the long-term for Africa, with gTLDs, meaning that top-line demands will become available, and in my travels in Asia and in parts of Africa, what you see now is communities starting to generate their own local content and lo and behold, youngsters are generating their own local consent on social media, on mobile phones, and that is a tremendous and very positive change, I think, that we're seeing overall.
And finally, industry and stakeholders have a pivotal role in use of the Internet. The Microsoft tells us that the norms in Africa sometimes require local and quite unique solutions. Thank you.
>> Thank you, Dave. That was very interesting and I hope everybody will look at the GRID Web site. It sounds like it's something that we all can learn from, especially in Africa and Latin America, so thank you, Dave. Now we're going to the adult panel, where Kim Sanchez from Microsoft and Yomna Omran from MCIT in Egypt will be our panelists. And Yomna, why don't we start with you.
>> Thank you very much. I'll talk today about the Egyptian experience in adopting -- I will talk about the Egyptian experience in adopting digital citizenship as a developing country experiencing political transformation, Egypt realizing the potential of on-line social media and the importance of introducing not only on-line safety but also the wider and more comprehensive concept of digital citizenship that examines education, risks, benefits, rights and responsibilities of Internet use and functions. We realized that the adoption of the concept of digital citizenship is a challenge both for end users as well as for service providers or entity in charge, whether educational, Consumer Protection or any other entity.
Both groups have a role in disseminating and localizing the concept in order to fit into the cultural context of the country. Egypt has started the journey of providing safety for children on-line more than four years ago, tried to cover the legal, law enforcement capacity building, educational and technological dimensions of safety.
In this process of working on on-line safety we have come across the concept of digital citizenship, which has been and is still being gradually assimilated in our training plans and awareness raising activities. We considered the concept as the wider framework encompassing on-line safety concept. In fact, the vision of digital citizenship offered us with a comprehensive and rich framework balancing between positive and negative usages of the Internet and opportunity to educate the masses by providing them with multiple dimensions we rarely find in any trainings or awareness-raising sessions. By attacking some elements of digital citizenship like digital access, digital commerce, digital communication, literacy and so on, we presented a multi-faced view of the Internet that is greatly valued by users.
As for the digital citizenship education, the participants, we used an Internet safety dissemination, has led us naturally to attacking issues related to digital citizenship. It was interesting to note that such development came from discussions with the youth Internet safety focus group, parents Internet safety focus group and educators Internet safety focus group. However, while safety on-line messages are relatively speaking straightforward and could be summed up in a number of tutorials for different groups, the introduction and adoption of digital citizenship notions is much more different and require considerable efforts to define for the end users as well as for adoption.
Our journey on digital citizenship started by a core team, which learned about the concept from international experts, starting by (off mic) all the way to Nairobi. We held a number of conferences, seminars and meetings with grassroots participation, speaking about scalable, we took an important step by cooperating with the Ministry of Education in formulating curriculum in schools.
It's worth saying also that there is a strong and good chance to enhance the understanding of digital citizenship currently due to the huge increase in social networking sites and the fact that it's becoming a trend in the Egyptian society. This opportunity needs to be exploded by the educational entities in Egypt as well as by NGOs. We realized the need to learn how young people are effectively using the Internet sometime ago, in order to guide us on how to address them on digital citizenship issues. Thus we engaged in efforts to survey Internet usage in Egypt through a number of studies, the last one being conducted under the umbrella of GSMA and how people use mobile phones.
The survey process was quite a learning experience, and the results will be available soon by GSMA. Scalability is a main concern in a developing country with more than 82 million population. However, scalability is not just a concern in digital citizenship. It is with many other endeavors. For this purpose we are proceeding as follows: First, we will continue the work of the national E-safety working group and its agenda to include digital citizenship issues. The national group has the benefit of grouping multi-stakeholders from different Government entities, NGOs, ISPs and private sector.
Secondly, we will include the digital citizenship curriculum in all existing training programmes. We are doing that effectively with the Egypt ICT trust fund where awareness raising is undertaken in the framework of capacity building programmes for NGOs.
>> Yomna, thank you very much. We need to move on. You can bring this up again in open discussion. Thank you. Kim?
>> Thanks, Pam. So I think we can all agree that the Internet is the landmark invention of our lifetime. I know for me it's hard to imagine life without it. The immense resources of the Internet and the array of Internet enabled devices provide all of us with new opportunities for learning, for sharing, and for communicating. While all on-line opportunities for all ages and interaction are great, the risks are real, but I think fostering digital citizenship helps to mitigate those risks, and I want to just say one point of the discussion. I know that the panel is focused on youth and the discussions earlier were very focused on youth, but I think digital citizenship doesn't apply only to youth, it's everybody, it's adults, it's older adults, it's parents, kids, older adults have to deal with different things than maybe the youth or our young people, but we need to keep in mind that adults need to model the right behavior for their kids. Young kids need to learn at a very early stage the skills and the tools that will take them forward for the rest of their lives. So just want to make that point.
What we've seen so far regarding digital citizenship is that countries will take a reactive approach, and we've seen this in the United States at the state level as well. They tend to deal with kids' on-line safety reacting to pass a law against something, cyberbullying or sexing and we need to take a proactive approach letting young people know they have to play a role in keeping themselves and others safer on line. This is digital citizenship, and I think that means it's defining the norms of behavior as it relates to responsible and appropriate technology use, so digital citizenship. The fine components, possessing a combination of skills, knowledge and understanding, that all people need to learn in order to participate fully and safely in an increasingly digital world. Youth especially need to know that they have a responsibility it make good and ethical decisions on-line.
We must be teaching and talking to youth about digital literacy, digital ethics and etiquette. This means talking to kids about not sharing too much personal information. In surveys that we've done at Microsoft, we see large percentage of youth say, I do share a lot of information, personal information. We call it digital TMI, too much information. So we also need to talk to kids about ensuring that they can navigate the Web in a secure and safe way and they can demonstrate responsible on-line behavior.
We've talked about the risks, and Larry Maggett is here somewhere, but he had a good observation earlier today when he said we should be talking about positive things. That's absolutely right. We don't want to dwell and talk about all the negative things but some of these things are real, and when we think about the risks we categorize them as content that may be inappropriate material, may be pirated conduct (loud noises).
>> We can hear you now so we're going to mute you until it's time.
>> Okay. So --
>> Kim, please take another minute or two.
>> Thank you. I won't be much longer. So the -- as I mentioned, conduct, maybe sharing too much personal information, cyberbullying and managing one's on-line reputation and that can be a very positive thing, contact, inappropriate contact, potential sexual exploitation, unwanted harassment, that type of thing. So when Microsoft thinks about these issues, how do we enable digital citizenship? We work with Non-Governmental Organizations, industry partners, governments worldwide, for adult solutions and promote effective policies that help protect people on-line and this includes technical tools, so we have family safety settings in many of our products. We have a report abuse mechanism in many of our products so if people are acting inappropriately or using technology to harass someone people report it and we take action. We offer education and guidance and we have a Web site, Microsoft.com/security. And that's the U.S. site, but the site is also localized in many different countries so you'll find it in your local language, but we offer things like fostering digital citizenship white paper which we also have at our desk -- our booth up here as well, so that's giving them lots of information about staying safe on-line. We also have robust policy, public policy practices and we partner with governments, with industries, law enforcement and educators and advocates.
So when I think about digital citizenship scaling to the developing world, I think we have a huge opportunity because in some ways I feel the ship has sailed, and I don't know if that's an analogy that will translate well, but in the developing world kids are already engrained, they're doing what they're doing and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. So I think there's an opportunity here and elsewhere in the develop world to really start at the ground up and do things right, maybe even learn from the mistakes of the developed world. So I think that's a huge potential opportunity.
So what can we do as parents, as educators, teachers? We want teachers to be able to teach digital citizenship in their classrooms, but we want them to have the right training and development to do that, to make that happen. Industry, we can do the right things by providing the family safety controls and in our products, report abuse mechanisms and we can also promote educational materials, and we can support partnerships that support digital citizenship.
>> Kim? Thank you.
>> I'm just going to wrap -- one more thing. In governments, since we have so many Government folks here, we want to make sure that they support digital media, literacy but also not impose technology mandates that prove to be ineffective because of the global nature of the Internet. So anyway, I think there's a huge opportunity and I think it's an imperative that the developing world adopt digital citizenship. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much, Kim. Very interesting and enlightening. Now I'd like to turn it over to Will Gardner, who will bring in our youth participants with the interactive discussion and Q and A session. Thank you, Will.
>> Thanks so much, Pam. Members of the youth panel, we've got seven young people here, we've got four from the U.K., got Alex, Becca, Nicola and Jack. Three from the U.S., Sam, Kellye and Taylor, and we have two very loud remote participants from Egypt, potentially, which I hope will be able to engage in the discussion we're going to have. What I want to do in this session is to just ask you all a little bit about the technical instrument you're using and how you use it and what education and experience you have of the technology in your every day-to-day life. But also to look at the concept of digital citizenship and what it means to you as -- from your perspective. And then to look at the issues around scalability, which we'll come to at the end.
So I'm going to just kick off with a question to all of you, which is just asking you, can you let me know a little bit more about how you use the Internet, and I'm going to start over there, Becca. Tell me a little bit about that?
>> I use the Internet for either schoolwork or social networking, so -- I've just got an iPad so I think social networking on here but I use the computer for either typing for a schoolwork, so it depends on what I'm using it for, for what means I use the Internet.
>> I'm Sam -- I've got my smart pad in my pocket and you can't get away from it, you're on the social network, the media sites, it's fantastic having that incredible gateway with you the whole time. It's not an addiction. You don't want to get away with it. I think using the tools off of it.
>> I would say I use the Internet for a couple different purposes. I think one for knowledge, to gain knowledge, whether that's related to schoolwork or just my own personal knowledge about issues or things happening in the world. I use it to kind of stay informed as well with new sites and discussion boards and things like that, and then I also use it definitely to connect with individuals, with friends here in the United States but also -- well, not here, we're currently in Kenya, but the friends at home in the United States, but also across -- across the globe as well. So I use that as -- I use it as well as kind of a connection point.
>> Definitely. I would say that I use a little bit differently as a journalism major simply because I wake up in the morning and I have my six news apps that I'm constantly checking and then I'll pull what's of interest to me from there because I can separate it into my local news stories that I'm following on my CNN app and then I can tweet those to my followers personally. So a lot of that is actually pushing information to my friends and using that social connection as well as staying in touch, but also at our university email is massive. I receive about 200 to 300 emails per day and that's actually not an exaggeration. So a lot of it is the ability to connect and to pass along information as opposed to receiving it, necessarily.
>> Okay. Come over to this side. Jack.
>> I've -- it's my main gateway to information and entertainment, really. YouTube, social media, social networks, but most recently I've used it for (off mic) GCSEs and that's really helped me get through them because I don't think I would have done as well if I hadn't had access to the Internet, so it's been a really big help, really.
>> Thank you.
>> Well, I sort of use the Internet for a lot of things. Listening to music is one of the entertainment, as Jack says, research for school, reading and news, Twitter, ByteSized, which is a revision Web site in the U.K., and also I don't think this has been mentioned, I use it for eBay and Internet shopping. I'm sort of on the Internet is something that you can get things for a lot cheaper on the Internet sometimes than you can in shops, and yeah, and StumbleUpon, personally, my favorite Web site, just finding sort of Web sites in weird corners of cyberspace that you'd never think to look.
>> All right. The shopping has made an entrance of the list of things to do.
>> I'm sorry. I would say that my main use of the Internet has been for research. I was really into researching, and a lot of on-line journal, things that you have access at university, that I don't have access to now, and it's quite a shame. I would say since graduating my Internet use has scaled down significantly in. In terms of usage, I probably use it mainly to connect back with friends from home, through Facebook and Twitter, and then to check the news daily. So I think I would represent the older kids that don't really use the Pininterest and all these other new Web sites I'm just learning about here at the conference.
>> We've heard about lots of different services, Facebook, social networking, games, a lot of schoolwork and research.
>> We can bring them in if you want --
>> We can bring them in? Can I ask one more question here and then we'll ask them a question in a second. I'm interested in the different access points that you use. We heard about iPad earlier. Are there any other sort of access points that ewe on a daily basis -- you use on a daily basis to access the Internet? If anybody has got things to --
>> I use my Kindle to access the Internet right now, although it's out of battery at the moment so I'm not reading the Twitter feed.
>> Alex, you mentioned smartphones that you're on all the time. It's the first thing you do in the morning, that's what you said, isn't that right?
>> Every time I wake up you can sit -- just lie there and check the news app and that sort of thing. So it's just the ease. I think that's the main thing and having it there all the time.
>> Okay. But PCs and laptops still useful, people still using those?
>> I don't have a smartphone, I don't have an iPad. I just use my mapa -- so that's my one kind of access.
>> Good. In terms -- do you think you're representing your friends as well, your peer group? Is that pretty much a similar experience that they're having too? Jim, can we put the question across then to our two Egyptian friends in terms of how they use technology? Can I talk directly to them?
>> You should be able to.
>> Okay.
>> You're unmuted so feel free to respond.
>> Hi, this is Yasmeen Fahim from Egypt. Personally I (off mic) a big part of my (off mic) life and (off mic).
>> Okay. Thanks very much. Is Ahmed there? Looks like he may have lost his Internet connect.
>> When he comes back we'll go back to him. So we found out about schoolwork, and there was an EU kids on-line survey from 9 to 16-year-olds that what was the most popular activity to use the Internet for, schoolwork was far and above the first entry, and some of the other activities of social networking, more or less, were in there. What about your experience around using technology on how it impacts on your friends, your life, your friends, your community? How important is the technology in terms of the connections that you've got there? Perhaps I can start on this side.
>> I think that the Internet for me has really opened my world to a number of friends and individuals that I wouldn't necessarily be connected with otherwise. I talk to my parents all the time about this, but we go back to the you meet people and you start maybe writing them letters and a couple months later the letters stop coming and you never know where that person went, what happened to them. And they recently have gotten back on Facebook and have started connecting with their old friends. So I think it's a way not only to expand your horizons with individuals you socialize with every day but also people that are outside of your peer group and outside of, you know, your country, your city, everything. And that's an amazing addition to my -- you know, to my social network and my friendships and knowledge of the rest of the world.
>> Okay. Thanks. Now, I know that you are -- you in the youth camp we had beforehand were talking a bit about the issue of exclusion if you didn't have this connection, what impact that would have.
>> Yeah, well, I went off, like, Facebook for a while after my exams and I found out I was left out of quite a few conversations because sometimes people are talking about on social networking sites, they bring into their real lives and talk about it the next day and carry on. So I had to find people that would take me back and explain what had been happening so I found out more about it. But I also found that when you're on the Internet, on social networking sites, one comment could either make or break your day. It can completely change the way you interact with people in the real world. So I don't know, it just affects your mood, I think, and how you interact with people.
>> So there's a pressure to be -- on-line, in terms of the relationship with your friends, otherwise you feel like you're missing out on that, and then bad things can happen. Okay. Has anybody else got any comments on that from -- okay. Who do we have? We have Ahmed there?
>> Yeah, I'm here. (off mic)
>> We were just talking about the Internet in terms of how it impacts -- what implications it has on your relationships with friends and with the community at large, and we're hearing a couple of comments about how not being connected can be difficult for relationships, you can feel excluded. I wonder if you had any comments around the implications -- the influence of technology on your relationships.
>> (off mic)
>> Okay. Thanks very much for that. That's leading neatly on to a question I want to ask, which was -- we've heard a bit about this already. Is there anything that worries you about using the Internet? Is there anything that you're worried about? Yeah.
>> Yeah, I was talking to people about earlier, same thing, is this idea of a wall garden effect of the Internet, so when Web sites are now pushing through social networking they're able to access their Web site, their information, to purchase their merchandise because posted it to their site or you liked it and that popped up on your news feed. Then you have Google plus where you're sharing it only to specific groups of people, so although the idea of six degrees of separation applies, I share to my friend and Kellye is my friend so she can share to her friends, you're only seeing what those few people are posting and that's separating us from a large region of the Internet that my close friends maybe don't enjoy or don't choose to share with me. And so as we see that push to all these organizations using specifically social networking, in order to get people to their network and have social network as their home base, that worries me I'm going to be missing out on a lot of information or maybe YouTube videos that my friends are talking about and I didn't get to see because my elect select group of friends didn't share that with me.
>> One thing that kind of scares me about the Internet is, you know, privacy is a really big issue for me. I mean, I don't have Facebook. People ask me why, and it's sort of -- I'm wavering between two reasons. You know, I'm not a person who likes to share a lot of personal information and I wouldn't feel confident about putting stuff like that on-line. Recently I was on Stumble (off mic) last week, which is handy for this, and I ran across StumbleUpon as a way to look at the albums of Facebooks on people who had privacy settings and people who didn't want people to see their pictures. I'm not flattering myself by saying people who weren't my friends would want to see my pictures but the whole idea it's available scares me completely. And it's not something I feel confident doing.
>> That's raising issues around concerns about privacy while being filmed just in front of you. Very well. We talk about digital citizenship, and I just wanted to hear your -- what do you think a good digital citizen is? Essentially, what comprises good digital citizenship? And I'm looking straight ahead on that side. Anybody -- anybody got any ideas? What is a good digital citizen? Okay.
>> When I think about -- excuse me, I'm a little sick. When I think about digital citizenship, I think about kind of opportunities to connect, but also about being active in a positive way, in an on-line sphere, and I think that includes being invested in where the Internet is headed and how it's being used, and those are areas that impact us significantly, especially as young people using Internet. But I think the issue with that is that there's a knowledge gap. You know, we -- nowadays people are using technology as such young ages but they don't truly know what they're doing, the power that the Internet holds, neither do I and I've been using it how many years. And I think young people are often called digital natives but I think with that comes an assumption that we know a lot more than we might actually understand.
And so when I think about this idea of digital citizenship and kind of how that can be conveyed, I guess, to young people as a whole, I think -- you know, I agree with him, I think it's a citizenship in and of itself, and we as young people, digital -- you know, technology and the Internet itself is such a big part of our lives that that citizenship in general, I think definitely kind of passes on to digital citizenship and being a citizen on-line, but I think, you know, feeling that knowledge gap and kind of an education is incredibly important -- filling that knowledge gap is incredibly important but one thing I'll say is with the education, and I think Kim mentioned this earlier, with that education I think a big key for me as a young person is positivity. I think a lot of times when we talk about youth and the interpret, young people and the Internet, there are a lot of negative terms, vulnerability and fear for them, and we use these technologies so young without knowing a lot so we are vulnerable and there is a safety and protection that needs to be there. I think sometimes I feel that we're sold short, you know? As young people, we have the capacity to understand how to be safe on-line, we just need someone to show us that. And so I think with that education there's sort of two pieces.
One, you know -- sorry, I'm talking for a long time. I'm going to wrap up. I think one, there needs a talk about the dangers and what but with that comes why, why you need to be wary about contact you're putting on, why you need to be wary about activities putting on-line. That's a young piece for me as a young person, don't do this, don't do this, please tell me why. That's one side, but I think the other side is empowering us to use it in positive ways, empowering us that we can use the Internet for creativity and have an impact on where it's headed.
>> Thank you very much. We'll continue with another question. Thank you.
>> It's a big question. But in the interest of time we get to have some short answers. If you talked about what digital citizenship is and their rights and responsibilities within that, I'd be interested just to hear some ideas of what you think your rights are and within this framework of digital citizenship and what are the responsibilities that you have. Becca?
>> Well, we came up with a few rights that we think we have, and a few of these are the right to be who you are and not to be pressured by others. The more genuine you are on-line the better. To be safe, to enjoy the benefits of what is on-line but to feel secure about what you're doing and how you're going about it. And to be able to report things that you're not happy with on-line, but to do it anonymously so you won't be judged for what you're doing, and those are a few of the key points, I think.
>> Are we able to talk to Yasmeen? What's your view of digital citizenship?
>> (off mic)
>> Thanks very much, Yasmeen. If I can just ask you a very simple question, on a score of 1 to 10 around the table, what digital citizenship means to you. What score would you get if you say, 10 digital citizenship is a really relevant term and I think it's useful to a young person, or on a lower end of the scale of receiving zero. If I can go around very quickly just in terms of numbers. Jack, have you got -- is it --
>> Yeah, I'd say 3 because I think the whole thing is quite pointless. There's something vaguely (off mic) digital citizenship. I think more education is needed to become more relevant in the world today.
>> Okay. Thanks. So the turn is -- doesn't grab you, would you say? A 3 here.
Have we got -- we've got wildly different numbers. Taylor, do you have a figure around digital citizenship?
>> I would say -- I'm hopeful that digital citizenship is going to catch on, so I'd say a 6, but I don't think that it's really relevant yet with our generation as a term or a concept because we talk about on-line safety, we talk about privacy. I think it's kind of -- there are divisions within that term, and within that there's different levels that I would give it. So as a whole it's somewhere in the middle because it really -- it generalizes too many terms for me to really give you a good answer.
>> Okay. Fair point. It encompasses too many things. We got a 3 and a 6. Go for any higher or any lower. Yep, Sam.
>> I would go higher, personally. I think digital citizenship -- I would give it an 8. I think it's really the same thing as citizenship. The Internet is just an avenue to express that connection to humanity that we have, and while there are issues such as privacy, I think I'm so much more connected to international issues and my friends internationally and things like that but it's really just an extension of our everyday lives.
>> Okay, Sam. Alex?
>> Yeah, I wonder if we're answering this question differently because I would personally give digital citizenship a low score of 1 or zero, because I think there's an element of disillusionment here because by giving it the stuffy title of digital citizenship, it sounds inaccessible, especially for youth, and if we're considering youth here, why make it sound like something distant? But as it has been by panelists here, the on-line space and off-line space aren't inextricably linked. So why not just call it citizenship and this is a mere component that we act as a responsible way on-line. So I don't think actually you're going to help ourselves by distinguishing between the two because they are one and the same.
>> Thanks, Alex. So that's a low score. Are we able to bring in Yasmeen and Ahmed for a score? Yasmeen, out of 1 to 10, digital citizenship. Is it a good term?
>> Well (off mic).
>> Thanks very much. Ahmed, are you -- can you hear us?
>> Yes. Well, actually I give it a (off mic).
>> 8. So we've got a wide variety of scores there from potentially 3 -- we've -- from 3 up to 8. But if we ignore the term itself, if we ignore the label and just look at what's in the jar, then it is a good thing. Yes, nodding around the table, so the label could be a bit confusing.
>> Does anybody say no to that, will? Does anybody say no, if you look in the jar it's still not meaningful? Thank you.
>> So the term -- the term doesn't grab some of the audience. I think that's what we can go with. We've got a few minutes left with the youth panel, and the overarching question was (off mic) we look at the -- can we look at the applicability and the scalability, is this an effective way of talking about all the issues that we're talking about (off mic).
>> Digital technology itself is just -- it's just beginning to breach, you know, the whole country. And I think digital citizenship maybe is a bit more relevant, as it's important -- we've had the Internet for a while now, to know the sort of -- we are a fair idea of what the dangers are on the Internet and that we know, you know, what we're about. So I think it's important for us -- for us it's not so important to have the term "digital citizenship," and it should be taught as an extension of citizenship, but maybe for countries where it's just beginning -- technology is just beginning to scale in, then it's a more important term to use and to teach separately.
>> So put you on the spot here. You've been living here in Nairobi for a few months?
>> Yeah.
>> What do you think?
>> I definitely see the Internet doing here (off mic) and in Kenya. One thing I've noticed is the use of mobile Internet primarily and how big the mobile Internet has gotten. And I talked to some other people at the conference, mainly Kenyans, about why they think mobile Internet has taken off, and the use of mobile technologies for banking and for streamlining development, as it may be, the use of mobile Internet is much more accessible to Kenyans and to people living in remote areas here. It's a more accessible technology, it's cheaper, the plans are cheaper, and you can have it with you all the time. It's not bulky, it fits in your pocket.
But one concern that I have heard said by a lot of people here is that there is a security issue and there is an awareness of the security issue now, but it's -- it's very much something that nobody has said, here's the solution or it's very vague, there's just this -- you don't want to share your credit card information in Kenya. You might not want to do these kinds of things. And I think it's a very different question, because you're starting from the ground up, whereas in developed countries like the U.S. and the U.K., you're hearing talk about the dual citizenship and teaching children about good usage and the fears, but I know the fears are similar here with children being exposed to content that may not be appropriate, but I'm not sure that the security measures are the same or that the path to securing the Internet in these countries is the same.
>> Okay. Thanks very much. Can I look to remote participants and Yasmeen, from your experience how is digital citizenship that is being introduced in the campaigns that you were talking about earlier -- how is it impacting? Is it -- is it being well received?
>> (off mic)
>> We have to turn to one very -- okay. Okay.
>> I was just going to say, I don't know how easily digital citizenship could be scaled into other countries because people will see it in different ways and interpret it in different ways, depending on the cultural backgrounds. Say as we thing one thing as having equal rights on the network. Maybe in some countries women are given less rights than men and to them that's their norm so why would it change for the Internet if that's what they're accustomed too. I think there will be different rules for citizenship depending on where you're from and what you believe in. That's just my thought.
>> So it has to reflect different cultures. I'd like to bring in the grown-up, the older panel, at this point. I'm speaking from the youth panel over here, to see if there are any questions that you have particularly for the young people after hearing that discussion that's been going on.
>> Anne, you got a question?
>> I was wondering, Ahmed, if you can still hear us, do you think that digital citizenship is more relevant since your revolution starting at Tahrir Square? Would it be more relevant to Egyptians now than a year ago?
>> Well, it is (off mic).
>> Okay. So you're saying that the technology and the citizenship formed a big part of what happened in the country, but education and awareness is still very needed in terms of getting out to show that more people are engaged in the whole digital citizenship concept. Any other questions from -- Dave?
>> I'd be very interested to know two things, really, as young people, and a lot of what you said was really insightful because we make loads of assumptions about what you use things for. But two questions really. One, do you think schools would play a bigger role in terms of the way it's done, you know, the curriculums you came through, what was that like? Did they teach you responsible use for Internet safety? So that's one question. And then I suppose the other, really, is what -- how do you amongst yourselves -- is there a sort of peer support? Do you find -- where do you learn most from? Is it not from your parents, not from your teachers but from each other? Is there a peer element here that we're perhaps missing?
>> Yeah, so I think many people know that youth are strongly influenced by their peers, that's a blunt statement but that's how it works. It's been mentioned, I think Kim mentioned the norm and that's the most important thing I think, that the norm needs to become this responsible usage, however you label it. And wherever the education system can do, whatever we can do among ourselves to establish this norm as quickly as possible then that's what I think will actually make the difference, because as I said, we follow the behavior of others in both a negative and a positive kind of way so therefore anything we can do to promote responsible, positive use of the Internet, whether it's through the schools or we do it by ourselves, then that's all the better, really.
>> Thanks so much, Alex. And I want to just ask the young people if they have any questions for the grown-up, the older panel. Jack, you said you had a question.
>> Yeah, just how would you see digital citizenship developing in the future as a term and as sort of whole.
>> That's a really good question, Jack. I think -- I think it's going to take -- it's a tough sell, is what I'm hearing, and we don't really have a great track record as adults in selling Internet safety to you guys, you know? So I guess I can say I'm just a teeny bit discouraged at the moment because I think, you know, being here at the IGF in this very multinational, multi-cultural setting, citizenship has a great deal of meaning, and I think it does to you guys too, but maybe in a different way. And as your spheres widen, that may change, but I think we have a great deal of education and awareness raising.
And Alex, to your point, it was -- that's an excellent point about norms of behavior, social norms. We really do have to together work out the social norms of social media, and we have thousands of years of social norm development to build on. We just need to sort of take it into cyberspace, be aware that cyberspace is just life. And I think you guys completely get that, but I don't think my generation does, and so there's a lot of awareness raising to be done among adults, and you can help us. We really need you, as you guys said this morning, hijack this whole discussion and help us raise awareness about how smart you are, how good you are at protecting your own privacy and how you teach each other and how you know how to be good citizens and how we need to help you establish those norms.
>> Before we go on I'd like to make sure that the audience is aware that they can jump in and ask a question to any of the panelists at this point, and -- oh, I see Patrice in the back. And try to direct your question to one of the panelists in particular, if you'd like, or if you want to open it up to just --
>> Just a very quick observation. I'm an attorney. I respect the rule of law, and the young lady that mentioned about the rights and privileges that you have as a citizen of your country under your legal system, is something that shouldn't be lost in the process here, and I really think perhaps we're stumbling over this word "citizenship." And to recraft it as looking at the Internet as a global information system, it's not a place you go visit like a movie theater, (chuckle), you know. It's this information system, the protocols and procedures and everything that allow you to communicate in ways you never dreamed of before. So to abstractly say you're going to have a citizen of this information space, this information system, I find a little unusual. So I guess I -- as a lawyer I'd like to recraft that word "citizenship," and if somebody has any ideas of alternate terms that don't run afoul of the basic issues involved in being a citizen, I'd like to hear them.
>> Could I just toss that question back to you guys, our youth panel? Is it just a communication system or is it also a space to you?
>> I totally see your point. Is it Patrice? Sorry.
>> Yes.
>> Saying it was an information system, not a communication system.
>> Yeah, I totally see your point, that it is to -- well, to me, the Internet is not just an information system. It can never be just that because of the ways that information can be shared, and information and communication via the Internet are not intrinsically linked because the way that we share information and the way that information can be -- knowledge can be shared, and I think that citizenship is an important part of this because we are citizens -- we're citizens of our own countries and the Internet is an extension of our lives. So I see that "citizenship" is a bit of a strange term to use. Maybe participant would be better. I don't know. We're participating in the Internet, and citizen maybe -- I see that it's difficult to apply to something that can't really be applied, is a separate world in itself. But yeah, possibly.
>> I think some of it, just to say -- we've had -- we have citizenship as a curriculum subject, and it's derived from that discussion around citizenship which has moved into this space. But I don't want to cut anybody off. Sam --
>> Just to branch off what Nicola is saying, I think of the Internet as an information system but also as a tool. The Internet is a piece of technology to me just as a cell phone is. So that we are using digital citizenship to become global citizens as opposed to just citizens of our own country because of the ease of access to every aspect of the world, and I find oftentimes that I'm informing my parents more about issues internationally and events that are going on because I know how to utilize that tool that is the Internet to access that information and to bring that into my daily life.
>> If I could add one other thing. Way to go, Sam, on the global citizenship. That is a core value at our university, so yeah (chuckle). But I would say like to say that I think the Internet really transcends your country citizenship, and that's one thing that's being discussed among my peers in the youth is that citizens of different countries abide to different laws and citizenship means different things in different countries. But when you talk about being a global citizen and the Internet truly is a global forum and a place where the world as a whole can connect, there has to be, obviously, a separate understanding of what that kind of citizenship is, but the same core values apply and the responsibilities to one another as individuals still apply.
>> I think this is a great question for our friends in Egypt. Jim?
>> Actually, you know, Yasmeen has a question she wanted to ask the experts, or the adults.
>> (off mic).
>> I've got a written -- I think I would like to ask what they think are ways through which developed countries can worked with the underdeveloped countries to work digital citizenship programmes out.
>> That's a really good question, Yasmeen. That has come up at a few different workshops here, and I think -- what I keep hearing is that we need to really work together, not reinvent the wheel, that there needs to be a sharing of our learning, the research that has been done in both youth risk on-line and social media, so that developing countries who are developing their own research for their own space can just have a start in asking similar questions so we can have some consistency of findings throughout the world. So I think there's a need to kind of share learnings that have occurred, you know, when other -- some countries have gone down the road a little bit, and a lot of communication. We've just -- we've got to continue to have forums like this so that we can talk together.
>> Let me jump in. Kim had -- Kim, do you want to respond?
>> I would echo Anne's comments that I think there are opportunities to not repeat maybe the same mistakes that the developed world has made and learn from that, again, kind of from the ground up and get it right the first time and make it culturally acceptable for that area of the world.
>> The gentleman in the back on the left and then we've got one in the middle. Thank you.
>> So one issue that I've had while being here is that we're having a lot of conversations about privacy, a lot of concrete conversations about is it okay to share data between corporations to help these corporations meet the needs of their consumers. And I think part of being a digital citizen is putting -- giving our input. You know, I like to -- I'm 19 so I'd say I'm youth. So I think it's important that we're getting our input in these situations, but I don't see us doing that as much as we should. Maybe upstairs in room 12 where you see the CEOs of these companies who are really actually implementing these things. So how can we do a better job of being part of those discussions and telling them while they're trying to define privacy for us, why aren't we in that discussion, also helping them define privacy and saying, hey, we care if you share our information or we care if you put our information on cloud and move it across borders. So how can were we do a better job of understanding what that means and be a part of those conversations rather than being only in these rooms.
>> That's a very good point and one that should be brought to their attention. I think the lady in the back had a question.
>> Not a question so much as a comment. My name is Caroline (off mic) and I'm from the Swedish programme for developing regions. I think what I'm missing here is the sub-Saharan youth. It's a great opportunity for the youth to sit here and air their views and their concerns, but the fact that this is organized in Nairobi and we don't have any regional participation from that end, whether they have access or not, I think is -- yeah, missing --
>> Well, we did have a young lady from Nairobi who goes to the local high school, and her name -- she's in the brochure, that you're welcome to take home, Kimberly Gakurer, but unfortunately she was not able to attend due to the school situation. The principal not allowing it at this point in time. So we did try and we will do a better job next time.
>> We certainly agree.
>> Larry?
>> Larry Maggot. I'm Anne's partner, ConnectSafely. Article 13 of the United Nations Convention Rights of the Child talks about that children should have the right to freedom of expression, the right to seek, receive and impart information in all forms of media. And I'm interested in hearing from the young people about the fact that many computer systems that you have access to, sometimes at home, almost always at school, are filtered, not just sexually explicit material but Facebook and social media. And I'm curious whether anyone here is worried about the fact that even in the United States and in Europe and in the so-called developed world, there are limits to freedom of expression, and how do you folks feel about that?
>> I definitely -- that does not worry me and bother me, and I think, again, it goes back to kind of what I was saying earlier about needing to not sell us short as young people and not and -- and not including us in the process, and I think again the idea of the negative side of the -- not negative, we need to be safe and I know that that's maybe done in the best of intentions, but I don't think that that is going to then carry into life afterwards. And so I think -- yeah, I mean, I think that that is a big concern for me because I feel like it is limiting our ability to kind of navigate the on-line sphere -- you know, sphere for ourselves, rather than -- and helping us do that rather than kind of -- you know, not including us in the process, if that makes sense. I don't even know if that's a response to your question.
>> It makes perfect sense. I don't know if anybody else has time for an answer --
>> Yes, Larry, we have two people who would like to respond to your question, Nicola and then Lee in the back.
>> Well, just in response, I'll continue from what Kellye was saying, in that I think it's important that we're told to be discerning. I was seeing this this morning in the workshop I was attending, it's more important for us to be educated on how to discern for ourselves what is the kind of content that we should be exposing ourselves to rather than being wrapped in cotton wool. The organization we're with, Childnet International, their Web site was filtered on our school computers, solely because I think it contained the word "sex," which apparently something -- everything is filtered to do with that. I managed to contact ICD support and change that pretty quickly. But that kind of thing was -- it's incredibly frustrating when there's information that you know that you might have access to at home which you know would be helpful to access at school or for a project, you can't access that because of overrestrictions, and overrestrictive filter systems. It's something that I deal with on a day-to-day basis and would like to see something done about it. I think more education about what -- less regulation and more education is what is necessary to deal with the problem.
>> Thank you, Nicola. We've got one response over here with Becca.
>> Well, last year at summer camp for last year's IGF, we had a discussion with people who control filtering in schools in England, and in order for them to block out the content that we shouldn't be seeing, they have to go far above that to make sure they get everything out. But Jack and I were having a conversation earlier about this, and we said, well, if you've been blocked from looking at something, wouldn't that make you want to look at it more? Because we're seeing not necessarily the worst stuff but some information that, say, you're not allowed to look at in school because it's got swearing in. Surely you'll go home and look at it anyway, because school has said no, you can't look at it. Surely you'll go home and think, they banned me. Let's go do it anyway.
>> That's very helpful. Larry, you may want to get together with the young people after the session. We're about ready to start our closing remarks from Douglas and Anne, so I'd like to thank all of you for your wonderful insights and I think there will be a continuation in the hallways.
Now I'd like to turn it over to Douglas or Anne -- Anne first and then Douglas in the closing remarks. Thank you.
>> I tried to let him take the turn but he told me to go first, so -- I was hearing a lot of important themes, I think. I find it very interesting the idea that technology is driving community cohesion and citizenship, and not the other way around, something that Dave said, that we're finding in Kibera here in Nairobi. I think that's something to think about. It's not going to be just the other way around, as it has been in the past. Self-determination through technology, self-determination is an aspect of citizenship in many countries, and many that happens on many levels. It happens for youth and maybe it happens for individual countries in the way they adopt technology and teach with it in a user-driven networked world. Oh, my gosh, there's so many really fantastic scenes. I really appreciated what we were hearing from our youth panel about whether or not digital citizenship really works for them, about its relevance. We have a lot of work to do in that area and we're going to need their help in promoting this discussion. They have to be part of it.
And I think I might just leave it there. Douglas, do you have any additions?
>> Well, again, the thing that struck me the most was the range of numbers that Will brought up with whether digital citizenship was a good idea. If we look at citizenship as a concept, it's -- that is still an unfolding concept, and yet people have talked about citizenship for hundreds of years, and if you talk about, you know, parliament and England in the 17th century, if you look at the fight for women's rights in the later part of the 19th century, if you look at the black civil rights movement in America in the middle of the 20th century, those are all concepts that still speak to citizenship, and I don't think that we can in an hour and a half or even maybe the next, you know, three to five years solve those questions when there are still much wider citizenship things unfolding. So I'll leave it there.
>> Let's continue the discussion on-line maybe. Thank you all very much for coming and for your participation, all the young people, super, very exciting for you and you've got a world ahead of you. And thank you all of you, Douglas, Dave, Kim and Yasmeen and Ahmed. Jim, thank you for your technical expertise back there and we had a little music to encourage us to stay awake.
>> (off mic)
>> Yes, so now we can segue into going to dinner. So thanks again. We really appreciate it.
(Applause)
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