The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> MODERATOR: I think we can start. Okay. I would like to say good morning, good day, good evening to everyone here in the room and also online. This session is entitled DC-Gender Disability, Gender and Digital Self-Determination. What is a missing link? And this is the session on digit -- the Dynamic Coalition on gender.
So we are delighted to have a number of excellent speakers from different parts offed world who will be joining us online. And also there is a speaker here on site. And so I will pass on to the organizer of this particular session, Debarata Das point of view. And also the person responsible for the Dynamic Coalition on gender. I wish Debarata Das was here?
Person. But welcome, Debarata Das online. And Debarata Das will give us a context for this particular session and introduce a little bit more about the topic. So, thank you, Debarata. All right while we are waiting for some of the online panelists to join us, I will -- well, there is the concept of digital self-determination and that is what the framing of this particular session is all about. And it relates to our disability footprints. And we know how much they are growing.
And society is grappling it new concepts, experiences and understandings of relationships between our lives and the technologies that we use. And who are we as digital beings? Are we able to determine ourselves in a data-driven society? How did we locate ourselves as empowered subjects in the digital age, reimagine human autonomy, agency and serenity in the age of datafication. Self-determination has been a foundational concept related to human existence with distinct yet overlapping culture, sigh sew logical philosophic almost understand itings built over time. Similarly, digit self-determination, DSD for short is a complex notion reshaping what we understand as self-determination itself. DSD fundamental confirms that the person's data is an extension of themselves in cyber sit and we need to consider you individuals and communities can have autonomy over our digital self-s. This the centre on the intersection of feminist respecteddives with women, queer and Persons with Disabilities and working in the digital rights, gender accessibility and technology and explore too the lens of gender and lived experience of Persons with Disabilities.
So this is drawing from a first of its kind series of DSD studios organized by Point of View the organization in India headed by well, the project is involved with this particular topic and headed by Debarata Das. And it will focus on the theme of Digital Divides and inclusion and hat I in inclusion of women, gender and -- to digitally self-determine themselves using current emerging digital technologies based on lived realities of individuals from different geographies and context. And secondly, it will deepen understandings of a need and potential to work with Persons with Disabilities in developing new and' merging technologies. Thirdly, it explores the collaborative and learning opportunities to make DS actionable. (?) so we are going to look through the lens of gender, sexuality and disability.
And explore a bridge between access points and circled pain points. And think of inclusive ways of determining the self, in new digital life spaces, going beyond accessibility and also thinking about personhood, agency, choice, autonomy, rights and freedoms in digital spaces for Persons with Disabilities. We will draw from the experience of DVD studios around articulate a root concept of DSD and its key components through the lens ofsnd againer and think about cocreate through theory, practice, lived experiences and concrete examples.
And finally, operationalize DSD via a set of core principles and policy recommendations centring the interof gender and disability. So, we are still waiting for the online speakers.
So, I will -- I will pass on now to Vidhya Y who is here with me. And ask Vidhya Y a little bit about your experiences of being a digital person online and any barriers and enabling factors around this thing about accessibility, autonomy, choice. And potentially what are the implications for a woman with a disability.
Before I do that, I will introduces V Vidhya Y who is from an organization in India called Vision Empower and is the cofounder. Vision empower is a nonprofit enterprise incubated at IIIBT in Bangalore. A research fellow at Microsoft research India and authored several papers on issues concerning people with vision impairment such as improving programming environment accessibility for visually impaired developers.
Vidhya Y has received numerous awards and school alreadyships. Reebok fit to fight award and the Deboaay cooership for academic excellence and.
More. I will pass now over to Vidhya Y. So I will look forward to hearing your particular experiences. Please go ahead. I will turn it on.
>> VIDYA Y: Yes. Thank you so much to the organizers for having me here and also to Gunela. We make stem education accessible for children with impairments and I am born blind so I have the experience of glowing up in India which is one of the developing countries and also have experiences of going online, the digital space as a blind person.
As well as, I am a woman with a disability so I have that experience as well. Today I will be talking more from a lived experience perspective and also by -- I will also be sharing some of the observations that I have had with the children as well as women with disabilities from my friends, and things that people talk about generally on line.
So firstly, digital space when we talk about it, it is really huge because whennever we sea technology, that is the only way as a blind person I can communicate with the world. I can be more efficient. It has opened up so many opportunities like never before.
I always mention this thing that you know, growing up in a village, I didn't have access to technology in the growing -- grow is up US and missed out quite a lot.
As soon as I got on to the online platforms there was like so much that I could do. Even I didn't have to ask somebody to read out what is the news. Even to see the time you don't have to go looking for a braille watch. Even when you take something simple like something so obvious like written communication that everyone has on a daily basis. It was never possible for me 'til I learned to use e-mail. 'Til then if I had to communicate with somebody who can see, it was verbally or someone had to write it for me or I had to write it in braille which majority of the people don't understand.
Now this actually compromises so much of what you have to say because if I were to send a message and if I were to ask somebody to type it for me, that means I don't have privacy. What I want to say I cannot say. But digital platforms have opened up so many opportunities and definitely have given a lot of privacy to individuals with disabilities which we don't have mostly because because someone or the other is always there and the more severe disability you have from what I have observed the lesser privacy you have.
And as we know that a lot of people are not able to get on digital platforms really good as we all know. They have enabled so much that was not possible before. But definitely there are so many challenges in general for Persons with Disabilities. Like firstly, the accessibility issues that we all generally talk about. The websites are not designed in a way that people are access. There are a lot of imimagines. A lot of the things obvious people, talking from a visually impaired point of view, they are not accessible. But the barriers are many. Too many.
That what I have observed, digital platforms have given a lot of privacy. At the same time you have to be so careful. Because when I started using a computer, for example, I was not using a lot of video calls. It was not necessary for me.
But when the -- when COVID happened and people were trying to get to online platforms, then video calls were a must. So for me, first, I assumed that in the computer the camera will be the whole of monitor. That was my assumption because I did not know.
And then I would put my screen up and down thinking that okay, if I don't want myself to be visible, I can put it down so that people are not able to see. But once when my sister took a look at it she was just saying that the camera is just on top of the monitor and just your finger size if you put it down people can see you much more clearly.
So from then, it is really difficult without taking a second opinion to do anything digitally because you really don't understand. You really don't know. You -- I feel that I have too much vulnerability and missing out a lot of things with the world outside knows. I feel like faking a second opinion for everything.
But once you learn the basics, once you learn the game, then it will definitely empower you, but at the same time, something new would have come up and there will be something that you are missing out compared to someone who can see, for example.
So these are some of the constraints that I face on a daily basis. And also one of the other issue is when you are using a screen reader and typing something. Sometimes it -- when you are in places where it is crowded, so whatever it is reading for you, it -- for example, you know, when it is reading BnB so you might not make out the difference and you tend to send some other word instead of some other word. Or when we say voice communication that you will have to use sometimes it is really confusing because again there is no privacy. Suppose I'm in a conference and no not able to type everything because it is that screen. Trying to use voice-based communication there is no privacy. All of these are there and one of the main barrier that I have found whenever I have to join online in a lot of meetings, everyone finds it whether they have a disability or not. You cannot type at least if there is some other disability maybe typing may be easier if say, you have a hearing impairment or things like that. If you a visual impairment typing is a huge issue on phones but you cannot send out Vis messages on some of the WhatsApp groups for example the ones that you V. for visually impaired because the fear that someone has reached out and message you and things like that. It has happened so many times in the past. It is emPoe are but it is still restricting and not empowering in the true sense. These are like contradicting points but this is the reality and what happens with most people.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you very much, Vidhya. So many different experiences that you have explained to us.
And that's so important to understand what a person with a disability goes through in -- in becoming more and more -- becoming more and more online and becoming more active online. I would like to tell a story about a young woman in Malawi. She was supposed to be here but there were visa issues and so forth and through a sister DC on disability, we have provided travel support for Persons with Disabilities to participate here at the IGF.
And I would like to explain about grace from Malawi. She is a wheelchair user. She has a speech impairment and she has limited use of one hand. But and she comes from a poor family in a village. But, she was determined to study IT and so she went through school. She went to vocational college and she got through that with very well.
And now she -- she sometimes tutors other students. The way she uses a smart phone or a laptop is with her knuckles. That's the way she can communicate with her digital tools.
And what is -- what is important? When a person with a disability is online, who knows, there is no -- there is no like oh, they're different or something like that. We are together a digital being. And that is important that we are then feeling like we are on the same level with anybody. We communicate in the same way. On superficially. Even though there might be tools that enable it. But the recipient of an e-mail or text wouldn't know that. And I think that is very important.
But obviously, those tools need to be there. They need to be workable, they need to be designed with accessibility in mind. So, we are talking about tools in a general. We are talking about websites. Based on the international guidelines. The web content accessibility guidelines. Through W3C. We are talking about making sure that apps are accessible and it so important when any tool, any learning platform, anything is developed that it is done together with persons with disability. There is that saying in the didn't community "nothing about us without us ."
And that is part really of digital self-determination that we as Persons with Disabilities are able to be part of a development or part of the community as such. And we are respected for that. So, I just wanted to pass back to Vidhya so talk a little bit about some of privacy and security issues because we have imagine that as a person with a vision impairment, there are additional concerns about privacy. We all have concerns about privacy and security.
But there might be some additional factors that Vidhya can explain to us. Thank you.
>> VIDYA Y: Yes, tilely, digital tools enable you to do a lot of things by yourself which was not possible. For scamsome, these days there are a lot of colour recognisers. If you have a currency, there are apps which can tell you what the currency is about.
Then there are apps like be my eyes. Be my eyes it an online app which visually impaired people can install on their phones and persons who can see -- sighted people can sign up as volunteers so if you want any open. Suppose you are not sure if the light is on or not and one of the huge constraints that we have a serving captures. Captures are designed for not being readable by machines so that the Internet is -- the privacy is not compromised but they can be a barrier for Persons with Disabilities especially when you don't have audio capture. Though you know how to use a computer, you cannot use it. You can -- but if you (?) use tools like these, any time any part of the day, of course, there is a constraint that if you know English, then any part of the day you will get somebody to assist you. Even if you don't know English, you can set up your local language whoever is volunteering can set up their language as the primary language and can assist from that language. But for example, in India, we have a language called kanada so if if I want to get help, I will not get a lot of users in Indian time night time because it is Indian time. But if you know English 24 hours there is someone to assist you. I use these tools because you cannot expect one to be always around with you and you need quick help. One of the things that always people may not be willing to help you or even if they are willing to help you may not have the time.
These tools are very good actually because you can call and you can ask them. From fact, I connected a lot of digital literacy trainings and as I'm working with school teachers. So I actually guided them on installing these apps and taking advantage of them. We found really good uses. You know. Apart from the capture example that I told you. How it works is you can call them and the volunteer who picks up the phone will tell you to take the phone and point it to the computer. If you are blind you may not know whether the capture is visible or not so they tell you move right or move down, now I can see it better and now I can tell you.
But when I connected these trainings teachers actually the women teachers found innovative use of those technologies. From fact -- in fact, somebody was using it to match their with bangles. So whether the colour is matching. These are some of the innovative but very much needed for the teachers who we are working with and they started finding these tools very helpful.
But now talking about the privacy concern. It is like you don't want to depend on somebody too much because they are not there or they may not have the time.
But you are forced to depend certain times and at the same time, you are very concerned about where you are pointing the camera towards. Whether it is safe. Whether -- you don't know what is happening or who is speaking. You can just know the voice but you don't know what data is being collected. For example, they will be just take for example banking transaction. Now, at the end of the transaction, if you have to enter your capture, it means you have to enter all of the details in the beginning itself before showing -- before pointing your screen towards the computer. Which meaned person who is at the other end can figure out what you have typed. So that is huge compromise actually. I mean people are well intentioned but at the same time it is huge compromise and you are not sure. If you enter the Captch and type the data it will time out there is only 40 seconds or amine and by then you have to enter and submit. That kind of privacy concerns are there and the privacy concerns about how much of you should be visible to the other person. Where are you pointing your camera, whether it is safe. You are very unsure actually apart from the voice you are not sure of what is happen.
So these issues are there specifically for women with a disability.
Even simple platforms like Facebook and. We talk about visible issues. For example if I were to upload all of the photos that I have taken during in corn presence, if I have to make a blog, or if I have to -- in the conference. What I do is generally tell somebody so my cousin has come with me and he will give me the photo with the caption but that is all information I have. Now I don't know whether I want those photos to be there or not because you are not seeing them this the true sense. Just depending on the caption and sometimes you might miss it and there may be four or five pictures and may be one caption there is there. Always there won't be somebody to give you those captions. So always it is risky because sometimes people have told me only half of your face is visible. Or this photo shouldn't have been there. Sometimes you are forced to take screen shots and share and you realably have no idea of what what you are sending. These concerns are there. They are empowering but at the same time all of the concerns are there you just need a second opinion most of the times.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you very much. There was a lot of very good examples there of particular concerns. We had technical issues with the Zoom link and I'm pleased to say that the online speakers are nearly all there. We are switching back to the introduction to Debarata Das who will explain a little bit that the project in India when it comes to that a particular topic.
Over to you, Debarata Das. Sorry there was some technical issues and some confusion with the link. Thank you all very much for joining. I'm Debarata Das from Point of View and we are a feminist nonprofit in India work, primarily in the intersection of gender, sexuality, disability and technology. So to set some context forked session today, be will as your digit digit footprints are glowing we are gapping with the understand is of the relationships between your lives anded technologies we have use. It has become important to understand who we are as digital beings and what does the self mean and how do we imagine aah ton may choice. Digital self-determination is an' involving concept to consider some of the critical questions and fundamental affirms it is an extension of themselves N. the cyberspace. Already today we will unpack through the lens of experiences of Persons with Disabilities from different countries and regions. I'm pleased to introduced moderators. Sorry about the delay because of the technical issues. Our moderator onsite is Gunela Astbrink. She has been active in the disability policy programmes and research for 30 years and clares the Internet society actor accessible group and stands on the multistakeholder Advisory Group and the Vice-Chair.
The moderator online and partner in this is Padmini Ray Murray, the founder of design Beku. A digital collective based in India that works to shift how to think about design as tech and processes co-creation and participation centred around feminist values and ethics of care that advocate also for designing with communities and not if for communities. With that, I will hand over to Padmini Ray Murray to share in brief more context of how today's topic relates to disability rites and justice and then over to you both to take the (?).
>> PADMINI RAY MURRAY: The scene is set quite well. We mentioned that digit self-determination is something that we can all currently positioned in a way ha we all have to think about quite deeply because of the I'm placations. Every single device we use is compromised by some sort of surveillance. It is difficult for even nondissibility the to wrap their heads around how to keep themselves and their privacy safe.
I think obviously this is -- this burden is doubled for People with Disabilities. There are two reasons for this. Largely because most devices or apps even if they are plaid for disabled users might not be taking these concerns into consideration when they are being designed.
So some of our work over the last few months with the Point of View has been actually speak together designers and technologists and putting them in conversation with People with Disabilities. It is something that we come across designing technologies although there are guidelines those are often just a baseline and there is much more nuanced requirements that disabled users that need to be taken into account.
The second issue is that in any kind of case around privacy and surveillance, it is always the marginalized who are the most vulnerable and there is the least bit of opportunity and options for recourse for them so becomes even more important that we look specifically at disabled users and how they might view self-determination as a use case. I will stop there and hand back to Gunela.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you very much. Just for the participants and speakers online. We did part L. start half an hour -- over half an hour ago, so it means we have about 25 minutes left. So we will move on to talk a little bit about let's see. We are going to talk about imagining digital tech that works for everyone. I'm keen to hear examples and stories of digital tech with safe, joyful user experiences. If Manique is online I would like to pass the floor to her. The manager of a specialized training and disability resource centre. She has promoted inclusive economic development centring on Persons with Disabilities. And she also acts as Vice-Chair person of the south Asian disability forum on the founding member of the south Asian women with digitals network. If you are there online, please go ahead and talk about how digital how it request be the best that we would like it to be.
>> MANIQUE GUNARTNE: Tech have very important for People with Disabilities because that is how we survive in the. We as People with Disabilities we have a disability which we have toed a mate. Through the adifficultive desizes consider devices and technology it is easy for us to work equally as capable as people with nondisabilities. Imagine a world of technology which will assist People with Disabilities. For example, right, there are a world where the technology through the movements of people with disabilities which they have inform the caregivers what the requirements of the Persons with Disabilities. Then, the lifestyle would easy for us and especially now with the AI, artificial intelligence technology. There are so many technologies available but the problem is the cost factor.
It is very important that they have because for example for hearing impairedpersons. Say someone rings the bell, hearing impaired persons cannot hear. Or if the dog barks L.H.s the hearing impaired person cannot hear. Through a smart phone or any device, if a dog is barking a picture can be provided a dog barking or when the doorbell is ringing. Through the smart phone they can indicate that the door bell is ringing. It will be easy for a hearing impaired pences to make life easy and also for visually impaired experiences. The spygases, right, through the (?) and when we work with the smart glasses if we can identify what is around us and give a description so it will be very easy and also for people with physical disabilities. They are the people who have the mobility difficulties. Through apps and technology, they can find out places which they can arc session. It may be a restaurant. It may be a movie theatre. So, those things are, important and also there are People with Disabilities where their movements are limited. Through hand gestures and facial expressions if they can cop rate the computer they also can be equally as capable as people with nondisabilities so they can be employed and economically active. And also, if there are maybe technology through brain functions and the way of thinking, if they can operate any devices, so those are very important. And also, entertainment is not only for people with nondisability. We as People with Disabilities also need entertainments, maybe playing games through smart phones and the computers. So any accessible games and technology is -- it is very important.
And also technologies -- if technology is there to give emotional recognition. People with autism and also people with intellectual disability that would be very good for them. And platforms with accessible so that all of us can equally use platforms which are accessible.
And if we can imagine of a world where a smart phone, sorry, smart home. If you want to cook something if you push the ingredients. If the end product is there for People with Disabilities the home can be very smart. And we as People with Disabilities use a lot of devices. I'm a visually impaired person. You can just imagine a world full of darkness around you and that is my world.
So we do work equally capable as people with nondisability with the smart phone and laptop and use the be my eyes app which gives assistance and currency identifies and a rot of apps avail -- a lot of apps throughed smart phone and other devices. A world full of technology, especially for women with disabilities is very useful for us.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you so much, Maniqu. Wouldn't it be wonderful if all of those technologies were available so Persons with Disabilities could live seamlessly and independently. I would like to ask Judy Okite is she is online to speak to this particular imagining topic but also talking generally about her experience of accessibility and potential barriers.
Judy Okite is from KICT ANet in in Kenya and the founder for accessibility and equality and advocating are for better access for Persons with Disabilities for infrastructure and job Hine content. I will hand over to Judy, please, if she is there.
>> JUDY OKITE: Hello. Thank you. Good to see you. It is an interesting topic that we talk about accessibility for Persons with Disabilities. And yes, I would be excited to see all-inclusive technology or all-inclusive, you know, physical spaces.
Because that is the one that really affects me the most. I know for a long time we have been advocating for physical accessibility in the IGF and hope.Ly this year it is better. Little things that we don't get to look into are really what bringsed barriers and so enables or rather puts the people in the spaces of you have to request for assistance every now and then.
One of the things that probably I will mention that we have been able to do with KI CTAnet this year ex-ray wait the government websites. We did that on 46 websites to see the access, how accessible these information for Persons with Disabilities is.
Unfortunately, the highest was got an 80%. Of course, we were using the principles. And it was interesting the feedback. The feedback from government was interesting. Because people felt if you are at 80%, then you are at a good space. But no, if you are at 80% that means 20% of your content is not accessible. Meaning that the content is still not accessible for Persons with Disabilities. Another thing we found from the research that we did was that more emphasis is placed oned persons who our blind when it comes to digital content. But you will find that a person with cognitive disability is actually more disadvantaged. If the content is not understandable. If the content is not perceivable then you have lost this person. They are not going to be able to interact with your information as much and you would want all of them to. And looking at it from the kind of fer speckive perspective only a new years acognitive disability was recognised as a disability. You can see how far we are that everybody is included. I would really like to see if these little things that we can ensure that the Persons with Disabilities are part of your change. Yes, we want to make change but we need to include them. Not because they want to, but because they have to be part of the process.
If I can just quickly give an example. Most recently I was in Tanzania and having the forum for freedom that is an annual event. And -- we worked with them before so they know my very specific needs when it comes to the physical platform. So, when I got there, they had the ramp yes, but there is the big pavement before you get into the ramp. So my question was how does this make sense? So yes there ised ramp but I will still need to be lifted up to get to the ramp. That is not access that we are talking about.
They had a really beautiful accessible room. But they have this very small cubicle for the washroom. So I decided this time around I'm not going it say much about it. I am just going to demonstrate. I had to call the guys from the reception. Come up stairs withed wheel chair. I requested them could you please push the legal chair into the battleroom, you know. Arounded guy is asking me how do we do that? I'm like that's an Excellent question. How would you expect me to use it if you cannot push it? in there? So, it is not that the Persons with Disabilities want to be part of the process. They have to be part of the process. We need to empower the Persons with Disabilities to really be able to know their rights. You know. I mean I have to right to say this is not working for me. It is not for you to tell me this is the accessible room and people use it. I tell you that it is not accessible then it is not. I kept telling them if you had included a person with a disability to be part of the process the ramp would have not about been this bad. The washroom would not have been this bad. Not about having a wide beautiful room, it is about having it accessible. I would rereally love to see if we can do that and be deliberate from that. It is not something that we are requesting. It is a right.
We need to be part of that. We need to be part of the move -- of the change. It is not about -- we are going to disturb them or we know what it is that they need. It is about ensuring that they are part of that process that they are there. That they have a yes or no. And we are able and reare ready to listen to the -- we are ready to listen to the yes and the no and make the necessary changes. Thank you very much, Gunela.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you very much, Judy. And I think it just shows that we have this beautiful imagining of what accessibility is and what technology can do. But, then, we come to earth and realize some really fundamental things still need to be fixed.
And I think Judy also made suggestions there about nothing about us without us. We need to be involved in decisions on how something is built. If it is in the built environment or in the online environment.
So I now just wanted to ask the audience if there were any particular questions, comments. And, first of all, Padmini Ray Murray are there any online questions or comments before we go to any in the room?
>> PADMINI RAY MURRAY: Actually, Gunela since we just managed to get from the room, it would be really nice if we could also include her in the conversation. I think you might have a brief biography for her. She is a widely respected online specialist in disability rights an policy from India. Maybe we could have since we are running a little short of time skip to the question. How do you feel policy and regulatory processes can ensure the inclusion of disabled people in the creation of ored making of technologies just like Judies suggesting?
>>
>> NIRMITA NARASIMHAN: IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE POLICIES because otherwise, it -- it ensures that people are aver there is a need. It is mandatednd and recognised by law. There are standards to comply with. Otherwise it is just a personal request from somebody to somebody the fact there is a legal responsibility to comply with standards, I think that is very important to ensure that accessibility is there. So if you look at the data index survey countries which have policies are more likely to accessibility implemented.
So starting from the policy I think I would line to say that either we need to have policy or where we have policy, we need to focus on implementing the policy and gives us guidelines what to do and how to do and where to do. So I think that answers your question in brief.
>> PADMINI RAY MURRAY: Can I add a follow-up question. How would you advocate disabled people lobby for the policy. It is hard to take to a policy level. Maybe share an example or advice as who how that might be done.
>> NIRMITA NARASIMHAN: By and large a lot of companies have implemented the CRPD and ratified and signed and implementing from the legislation. Clearly dough plain specific policies to have come from within and Persons with Disabilities have to do that. Different strategies and situations. In India when we lad to lobby for the global and national level copyright law, we did a whole lot of research on what are the legal models available everywhere. We ran campaigns and we had meetings, signature campaigns and stuff happening. On the Oland when we look at eelectronic accessibility, we had meetings with the officials of the electronic N IT department and we worked with them to develop a policy. On another level when you look at implementing the procurement standard in India, we worked again withed Ministry and with an agency and they were nationwide consultations with experts and different actor demmer groups and industry -- academic groups and industry on the standards and what should be implemented. Clearly we need to be involved and motivated and get other people to be responsible for this. It is not something which is only applicable to us. Something we want the country as a whole to implement and depends on situation. Who are the people are we are in touch with. Whatever it is, we need to be proactive and need to do more than we think it is certain to do.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you very much, I'm so pleased that you got online in time to make your comments on policy. I think they are so essential.
So, I will now ask Lidia Best to have a question for comment.
>> LIDIA BEST: Thank you very much for the opportunity to have my voice. As we speak about nothing withoutous. I'm deaf and use cochlear implant. And when we talk about technology and how it empowers it does and also disempowers. During the pandemic the situation happened when everybody has gone online on the telephone lines. Google meet was an excellent tool where we could easily connect with each other and while not perfect, we were able to communicate.
Mostly, one to one.
Text messages also help. For deaf people, sign language users, we know what we got. Video call. We can use sign language great. When we meet and Zoom as been mentioned. Usually it is multinational pleating because I'm representing the European federation of hard of hearing people and work globally as well. When it comes to being involved, automatic captioning fails us and we find it difficult to participate because we cannot follow with the discussion is about. And another issue is when the users are actually switching the videos. Because with auto caption is if it is used it not correct enough.
We need to support ourselves lip reading. And that cause problem. We need to disclose that we need someone to have their face shown correctly so we can follow. The latest invention of Zoom is causing the biggest con sternation. Zoom has rolled out quite a new few languages in.
Great. Any icer participating in the Zoom call can clicked language they want. You know what happens? You suddenly have say someone using English language. Someone else wants to follow Spanish language and suddenly both of us see both languages suddenly showing up in the captioning. It Cree create massive confusion and we have to use human caption is in the meetings.
Unless everybody use just one language. Usually it has to be English. So there are a lot of issues and to me, this demonstrated latest thing with Zoom, Zoom did not work with Persons with Disabilities. And did not do the user research enough before actually putting this new feature out. That is a something that is really distressing. Thank you.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you very much for those important comments. Is there any last minute comments, questions from anyone else, please? Padmini Ray Murray is there any comments or questions online?
>> NIRMITA NARASIMHAN: Is there a minute. I wanted to add some more thoughts on previous discussions and talking about nothing about us without us. And we talk about accessibility and I just wanted to quickly mention that I think increasingly we feel the need for mainstream products to be, you know, more universally designed and even simple technologies around us that we can use. And what we need to understand is that just because it is accessible it is not useable to everybody. There are different levels of use others around maybe somebody an expert in technology can do something but another person using the same screen reader or captioning or same technology cannot. And we need to have the user-centric approach when we are talking about accessibility as well. With that, I will just condition include.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: -- conclude.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you, that is a very good point to end on. And, I wish to thank all our speakers. online, in the room.
And again, we unfortunately didn't have our online speakers there from the beginning because of some technical issues with the Zoom links but all of the information is captured and I'm sure that point of view and everyone else who have participated in this session will have some very useful information to take home when it comes to digital self-determination for people with disability and especially for the gender focus on this topic. Thank you very much.
>> DEBARATI DAS: Thank you very much. If Padmini Ray Murray could share the concluding thoughts and comments.
>> PADMINI RAY MURRAY: So yes I think as somebody that identifies as a designer and technologist, we when we tee sign and develop technology we tend to do it at scale and this means more nuanced individual is much harder to provide. This does require kind of a programmityic shift in the way we think about creating a customized products and something like AI may be the way forward but we need to be able to layer user institute action from a way that individual users can toggle between rather than Foisted same technology to everybody. Urge People with Disabilities with start the conversations and advocate for individualized and customized experiences rather than something "one sides that fits all" because we know very well it doesn't. Tank you.
>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thank you very much. And, Debarata Das, I think we are finished then. So, thank you very much for the session. And I think we will conclude there. Okay.
>> DEBARATI DAS: Thank you.
>> NIRMITA NARASIMHAN: Thank you. Thanks, everyone.